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Hasselblad CFV Digital Back User report
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
J
Jeffg53
Thanks Nick, is that likely to be a firmware upgrade or a new model? I am already about to miss out on the current promotion by not being quite ready. I'd hate to miss out on that, pay full price and then be faced with an upgrade.
If anyone knows, Nick does.
It's true about firmware AND software. It's amazing what can happen with the same sensor.
Hasselblad already improved the Flexcolor ISO 400 processing .
What really stunned me recently was the latest software upgrade from Leaf for my Aptus. ISO 800 is now way better. Not a little, a LOT better. Very useable.
I chose Imacon because of the support as much as the performance... my re-seller is on top of everything, and is a great help. But, I don't make long exposures like you.
It's true about firmware AND software. It's amazing what can happen with the same sensor.
Hasselblad already improved the Flexcolor ISO 400 processing .
What really stunned me recently was the latest software upgrade from Leaf for my Aptus. ISO 800 is now way better. Not a little, a LOT better. Very useable.
I chose Imacon because of the support as much as the performance... my re-seller is on top of everything, and is a great help. But, I don't make long exposures like you.
J
Jeffg53
Thanks Marc and Nick. I have just ordered my H3D39 for delivery in a few weeks. I hope you are right about the long exposures Nick, but as Marc says, if anyone knows, you should.
If anyone wants to invest in a V96C, 503CW, winderCW, PME45, 903SWC etc. etc please contact me offlist. Now to contemplate how I am going to fund some new lenses.
If anyone wants to invest in a V96C, 503CW, winderCW, PME45, 903SWC etc. etc please contact me offlist. Now to contemplate how I am going to fund some new lenses.
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Marc
I would very much like to come back to your contribution from the 17th of December 2006 . I found , that going to digital with HASSELBLAD is not as easy as you described .
Sharpness :
All images i get with may CFV back have to be sharpened . None is sharp right away . It is only a question of the parameters . For ex&le 120% at 1,3 pixel .
There is , as you know , the possibility to do that in FLEXCOLOR or , then later on , in PSCS .
If sharpness would not be an issue , this parameter would probably not exist .
I assume , as an image point is the result of three digital points (RGB) , no digital image can really be sharp without the help of USM . Please correct me , if i am wrong here .
Exposure :
I found , that the digital sensor behaves completely differnt to a film . This in regarding the sensitivity . For ex&le ISO 100 . If i use the reading of my meters (3 different ones , showing the same values , +/- 1/3 stop ) and use these values for the CFV , i receive under exposed images . The histogram is mainly on the left side and the exposure has to be corrected up to one complete step , or even more .
But i also experienced over exposed images . I have no explanation for this behaviour .
So , how do you use your PME45 then ? ? ?
I would very much like to come back to your contribution from the 17th of December 2006 . I found , that going to digital with HASSELBLAD is not as easy as you described .
Sharpness :
All images i get with may CFV back have to be sharpened . None is sharp right away . It is only a question of the parameters . For ex&le 120% at 1,3 pixel .
There is , as you know , the possibility to do that in FLEXCOLOR or , then later on , in PSCS .
If sharpness would not be an issue , this parameter would probably not exist .
I assume , as an image point is the result of three digital points (RGB) , no digital image can really be sharp without the help of USM . Please correct me , if i am wrong here .
Exposure :
I found , that the digital sensor behaves completely differnt to a film . This in regarding the sensitivity . For ex&le ISO 100 . If i use the reading of my meters (3 different ones , showing the same values , +/- 1/3 stop ) and use these values for the CFV , i receive under exposed images . The histogram is mainly on the left side and the exposure has to be corrected up to one complete step , or even more .
But i also experienced over exposed images . I have no explanation for this behaviour .
So , how do you use your PME45 then ? ? ?
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Mike
click on this :
http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets/digital-backs/hasselblad-cfv.aspx
see CFV downloads and choose your language . The download has 4 pages . On page 4 you will find a connectivity chart . There you can see to what cameras the CFV back can be attached to . You will be surprised .
click on this :
http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets/digital-backs/hasselblad-cfv.aspx
see CFV downloads and choose your language . The download has 4 pages . On page 4 you will find a connectivity chart . There you can see to what cameras the CFV back can be attached to . You will be surprised .
floridarich
Member
Jürgen Loob (Jotloob)
CFV, CF22 & CF39 URL web sites - Thanks for posting, Very Helpful, sensual and enticing, better than a first or second date.
Do we dare say 'Film is gone'. It is like saying, 'Does Locomotive Steam still live?'
Richard
CFV, CF22 & CF39 URL web sites - Thanks for posting, Very Helpful, sensual and enticing, better than a first or second date.
Do we dare say 'Film is gone'. It is like saying, 'Does Locomotive Steam still live?'
Richard
Richard:
Do we dare say 'Film is gone'>
'Does Locomotive Steam still>
Please don't say it! A couple of years ago I was told that in an area where the coal mine is surrounded by steep grades an old steam locomotive is used to carry out the heavy loads. Please understand that I want to think that is still the case.
I still think there is plenty of room for film, but someone new to photography walking into a store most likely won't be introduced to it. So, as more convert to digital, digital will continue to gain market position, but lately the large film suppliers here have told me that film has been doing well? A recent article in Sutterbug,(in a nutshell) stated that digital still has a ways to go to surpass film. So, I still have some hope to feed my transparency equipment.
Regards:
Gilbert
Do we dare say 'Film is gone'>
'Does Locomotive Steam still>
Please don't say it! A couple of years ago I was told that in an area where the coal mine is surrounded by steep grades an old steam locomotive is used to carry out the heavy loads. Please understand that I want to think that is still the case.
I still think there is plenty of room for film, but someone new to photography walking into a store most likely won't be introduced to it. So, as more convert to digital, digital will continue to gain market position, but lately the large film suppliers here have told me that film has been doing well? A recent article in Sutterbug,(in a nutshell) stated that digital still has a ways to go to surpass film. So, I still have some hope to feed my transparency equipment.
Regards:
Gilbert
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Hey you guys out there
As you can see in this thread and also in others , i have done the step to digital (CFV back on my various HASSELBLAD's) , but still suffer very much , because i encountered many , many problems . Unsolved yet . Desperation comes up and has not gone yet .
So i will encourage you , to use film as well , as i do , and will also do in the future . No doubt about this .
For my wonderful BRONICA RF645 , FUJI GW690III , HORSEMAN SW6x12 pro and for my wonderful HASSELBLAD's as well . Just to make shure : not as backup ! ! !
As you can see in this thread and also in others , i have done the step to digital (CFV back on my various HASSELBLAD's) , but still suffer very much , because i encountered many , many problems . Unsolved yet . Desperation comes up and has not gone yet .
So i will encourage you , to use film as well , as i do , and will also do in the future . No doubt about this .
For my wonderful BRONICA RF645 , FUJI GW690III , HORSEMAN SW6x12 pro and for my wonderful HASSELBLAD's as well . Just to make shure : not as backup ! ! !
floridarich
Member
Gilbert James (Gjames52)
Gilbert, I am a true blue film user, but must admit to having a digital Nikon for record photos when on Project sites.
For me there is a richness in a film process from making the decision of taking a photo, then the thin time slice of taking the photo, to a finished chemical analog print (proof print, or large print.
I like the feel of Hasselblad antique film cameras, they feel like an analog machine, and when the shutter is cocked, button depressed, it is magic.
I also like steam, having been born and raised in Chicago, where America's rails crossed. AND, steam still lives, Silverton Colorado has a train which runs in the summer through a curvy rocky gorge. There are other steam locos which still run too, some in fairly remote areas. But rail is disappearing. Film is disapparing, and I am disappearing.
I recently purchased a home in Redmond Washington (my children and grandchildren all live there). I like the Cascade mountains in their seasons, and feel a special bond to the changing of colors in each season. Washingon was made for photos. Sometime this spring, I will be leaving South Florida after 15 years, and eight strong hurricanes.
I wont miss the hurricane season, but will miss the perfect warm sunshine days of winter down here. They say we wont have snow here this year, or next year. For Certain there will be snow in the Cascades.
Richard
Gilbert, I am a true blue film user, but must admit to having a digital Nikon for record photos when on Project sites.
For me there is a richness in a film process from making the decision of taking a photo, then the thin time slice of taking the photo, to a finished chemical analog print (proof print, or large print.
I like the feel of Hasselblad antique film cameras, they feel like an analog machine, and when the shutter is cocked, button depressed, it is magic.
I also like steam, having been born and raised in Chicago, where America's rails crossed. AND, steam still lives, Silverton Colorado has a train which runs in the summer through a curvy rocky gorge. There are other steam locos which still run too, some in fairly remote areas. But rail is disappearing. Film is disapparing, and I am disappearing.
I recently purchased a home in Redmond Washington (my children and grandchildren all live there). I like the Cascade mountains in their seasons, and feel a special bond to the changing of colors in each season. Washingon was made for photos. Sometime this spring, I will be leaving South Florida after 15 years, and eight strong hurricanes.
I wont miss the hurricane season, but will miss the perfect warm sunshine days of winter down here. They say we wont have snow here this year, or next year. For Certain there will be snow in the Cascades.
Richard
steve_hendrix
Member
Jurgen:
Regarding sharpness, I have found that all of the digital backs produce different levels of sharpness raw, straight from the camera. As part of the de-mosaic process, some sharpening occurs with all digital backs in-sensor. But the amount varies.
Our experience has been that Phase One backs have the most up-front sharpness embedded, with Leaf second and Hasselbald and Sinar the least - and both very similar.
This can be perceived as either a negative or a positive, but subjectively. I don't see it as either.
Phase files come in sharp, but they may be too sharp for some. If so, you can simply make a reduction adjustment in C1.
Hasselblad files come in less sharp, but similarly, you can make an adjustment in Flexcolor to add sharpening. In fact, you might take your RGB-Embed paramater as a baseline, then make a few baseline changes, 16 bit, adding 70-100% sharpening, limit the sharpening channels to green or red/green, etc. Rename this paramater, and then it becomes your new starting point for all images, and can actually be applied upon imported files on the fly.
Also, it is definitely recommended that some amount of sharpening (70-100%) be applied to fff files before processing as Tiffs. Even if you perform final sharpening in Photoshop, the results will be superior as opposed to doing all the sharpening in Photoshop.
In general, Hasselblad's philosophy is to have files come in very raw, linear, and allow the end user to shape exactly what they want the file to look like. Again, a different approach than Phase One or Leaf, but not without merit.
Regarding exposure - yes, digital sensors are very much like film, ISO is not always as advertised!
Holy cow, there's a lot of smiley face options.
One last thing - me being new here. Is there a way to set up a daily digest of postings so 30 or 40 a day don't plow through my email?
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
Hi Steve,
> As part of the de-mosaic process, some sharpening occurs with all > digital backs in-sensor.
I believe you don't mean "in-sensor", since the Bayer pattern reconciliation and any possible sharpening are are not done "in-sensor". Perhaps you meant in-back?
The Bayer pattern reconciliation process does not inherently sharpen. No doubt, some manufacturers have chosen to add some inherent level of sharpening *post* Bayer pattern reconciliation. This is also true of film scanners, especially PMT (Photo Multiplier Tube - as in drum) scanners.
Regards,
Austin
> As part of the de-mosaic process, some sharpening occurs with all > digital backs in-sensor.
I believe you don't mean "in-sensor", since the Bayer pattern reconciliation and any possible sharpening are are not done "in-sensor". Perhaps you meant in-back?
The Bayer pattern reconciliation process does not inherently sharpen. No doubt, some manufacturers have chosen to add some inherent level of sharpening *post* Bayer pattern reconciliation. This is also true of film scanners, especially PMT (Photo Multiplier Tube - as in drum) scanners.
Regards,
Austin
steve_hendrix
Member
I believe you don't mean "in-sensor", since the Bayer pattern reconciliation and any possible sharpening are are not done "in-sensor". Perhaps you meant in-back?
The Bayer pattern reconciliation process does not inherently sharpen. No doubt, some manufacturers have chosen to add some inherent level of sharpening *post* Bayer pattern reconciliation. This is also true of film scanners, especially PMT (Photo Multiplier Tube - as in drum) scanners.
Regards,
Austin
Well, you know what I mean.
However - and I'm not a rocket scientist here, so ICBW, but one developer of raw conversion software described the de-mosaicing process as to also include sharpening in the routine.
Either way, I don't see it as a "classic" post process because you have no control over it, but the manufacturer has to take the sensor that's in his product, and create a de-mosaicing algorithm to produce his version of a raw file from that sensor that is readable by his (or whoever's) raw conversion software. And in that process, sharpening - at least from what I've been told by a a pretty solid, hands-on source - is part of the process.
Of course, not all solid, hands-on sources agree, so again I can't state this as a fact, just a statement from some amount of information that may or may not be the bottom line truth. How's that for a non-denial denial?
But, clearly, the amount of sharpness from the raw file is deterrmined by the manufacturer whose product the sensor is in, and the only question would be where that sharpening takes place - whether it's in the de-mosaicing, or in a separate level of "added recipe" at the capture stage.
Not really a big deal where that happens in either case, but at any rate, the variance isn the amount of sharpening is dependent upon the end product manufacturer.
Steve Hendrix
Hi everyone. I'm in NYC working and only now have had a chance to log in on this discussion.
Jurgen, what sort of issues are you having? To assist, I'd need to know how much experience you have had with digital capture prior to getting the CFV back for your Hasselblad.
Exposure: shooting digital requires precise exposure similar to shooting transparency film ... except you expose paying attention to the histogram on the camera back. What you want is to get the toe of the histogram as far right as possible without clipping the highlights. Those that previously shot neg film are often surprised how sloppy their exposures were because of film's broad exposure latitude. Digital is far less forgiving. I have very little difficulty using the PME 45 because I've learned how to use it with both film and digital.
You do have some latitude when processing CFV files, you just have to learn how to do it, which is different for each digital camera or digital back. These are the "default" software settings you store for each back. I have different Flexcolor defaults set for the CFV back and HD/39 back ... and a whole other set of defaults for the Scanner.
Jumping into digital processing is no less difficult to learn than darkroom processing was/is.
Sharpening is a function of final size not a general rule. Sharpening should be done to the final file at the size it is going to be printed, not the RAW file. There may be some default software sharpening applied by the manufacturers, but in Flexcolor you can set sharpening to zero if you want.
Jurgen, what sort of issues are you having? To assist, I'd need to know how much experience you have had with digital capture prior to getting the CFV back for your Hasselblad.
Exposure: shooting digital requires precise exposure similar to shooting transparency film ... except you expose paying attention to the histogram on the camera back. What you want is to get the toe of the histogram as far right as possible without clipping the highlights. Those that previously shot neg film are often surprised how sloppy their exposures were because of film's broad exposure latitude. Digital is far less forgiving. I have very little difficulty using the PME 45 because I've learned how to use it with both film and digital.
You do have some latitude when processing CFV files, you just have to learn how to do it, which is different for each digital camera or digital back. These are the "default" software settings you store for each back. I have different Flexcolor defaults set for the CFV back and HD/39 back ... and a whole other set of defaults for the Scanner.
Jumping into digital processing is no less difficult to learn than darkroom processing was/is.
Sharpening is a function of final size not a general rule. Sharpening should be done to the final file at the size it is going to be printed, not the RAW file. There may be some default software sharpening applied by the manufacturers, but in Flexcolor you can set sharpening to zero if you want.
steve_hendrix
Member
Sharpening is a function of final size not a general rule. Sharpening should be done to the final file at the size it is going to be printed, not the RAW file. There may be some default software sharpening applied by the manufacturers, but in Flexcolor you can set sharpening to zero if you want.
Marc:
I understand this as a rule of thumb, but I believe adding some sharpening to the RAW file has merit and should at least be experimented with to compare the results. Some of my customers have claimed better results with this method, and Bruce Frasier (RIP) has also commented on sharpening at least some in RAW (not final sharpening) as a recommendation.
And please, I am not trying to correct anyone or act like a know-it-all or anything. I most emphatically do not know it all. }I only open this up as a point of discussion and especially in the spirit of "your mileage may vary".
I have not done an actual comparison. If I had time to do all the comparitive tests I'd like to do.....
But this has come up several times recently in a couple different places in my world, so I think I will do some testing. And this does come from real world customer experience (and they could be wrong) and also from Bruce Frasier, who is and was highly respected as a reliable source of on-the-money technical advice.
Also - as a side note - again - Is there a "daily digest" option on this forum, so we can limit the number of emails that show up?
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
jotloob
Well-Known Member
To Steve
A very warm welcome to Steve Hendrix and many thanks to his very good contribution .
His explanation gives me a much better understanding of how digital images are captured and processed .
I wish , i could have found a least a simplified description of what you say in the CFV and/or FLEXCOLOR users guides . Just to show the workflow is not enough .
So a question would be : Is it better to USM in FLEXCOLOR or later on in PS after all your corrections , if any , are done . The preset USM parameter in FLEXCOLOR is 0% at 1 pixel , which means no sharpening .
To Marc
Honestly , i must say , i have no digital experience at all , and try very hard to understand technical details and the digital workflow . 30 years of hardware and software service in computer buisness , at least give me a good logical starting point .
I am not a participant in this forum , because i want to make holiday pictures , but because i go for "HIGH END RESULTS" , analog and digital and i appreciate others contributions very much . A great forum .
Marc i will come back to your details .
Unfortunately , i have to send my CFV back to factory .
It worked fine , at the beginning and then later on , intermittent , now solid , now image data can be written onto CF card . I can see the image and all control data + histogram ,
but the data is not saved on the CF card . I used different cards and batteries . No chance .
I did not want to make a fool out of myself . So i tried many thing to narrow down the problem . But now i am shure , there is no handling error from my side , no bad card reader , no bad CF card , but a solid electronic bug .
A very warm welcome to Steve Hendrix and many thanks to his very good contribution .
His explanation gives me a much better understanding of how digital images are captured and processed .
I wish , i could have found a least a simplified description of what you say in the CFV and/or FLEXCOLOR users guides . Just to show the workflow is not enough .
So a question would be : Is it better to USM in FLEXCOLOR or later on in PS after all your corrections , if any , are done . The preset USM parameter in FLEXCOLOR is 0% at 1 pixel , which means no sharpening .
To Marc
Honestly , i must say , i have no digital experience at all , and try very hard to understand technical details and the digital workflow . 30 years of hardware and software service in computer buisness , at least give me a good logical starting point .
I am not a participant in this forum , because i want to make holiday pictures , but because i go for "HIGH END RESULTS" , analog and digital and i appreciate others contributions very much . A great forum .
Marc i will come back to your details .
Unfortunately , i have to send my CFV back to factory .
It worked fine , at the beginning and then later on , intermittent , now solid , now image data can be written onto CF card . I can see the image and all control data + histogram ,
but the data is not saved on the CF card . I used different cards and batteries . No chance .
I did not want to make a fool out of myself . So i tried many thing to narrow down the problem . But now i am shure , there is no handling error from my side , no bad card reader , no bad CF card , but a solid electronic bug .