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CFV BACK SECOND TRY

I think it has a lot to do with the price of entry verses the price of upgrading Keith.

It became clear to me that it was important to study which way to jump and who to go with for the long haul. The loyalty discounts and upgrade paths from Hasselblad have saved me quite a bit of money over the past few years. I now have a H3D/39 upgrade which cost me much less than if I were to buy a new H3D/39 today.

I think a lot of discord happens on forums like this because there are two situations at play ... advanced amateurs who like MF and have participated in MF photography through most of it's history, and the professional photographer who makes his/her living at it.

The discord has reared it's head because MF is an arena fast becoming to expensive for the amateur. While we most certainly still have film, the lion's share of advancements are digital ones... as is the future.

A vast majority of professionals MUST be digital to survive. Their advantage is that a digital capture fee covers the cost of this horrifyingly expensive gear. I get $250 a day. This is cheap. Most rentals for my gear are $500.+ a day. If you own it, 50 days rental fee and a $25,000. back is paid for. That's roughly 2 jobs a month. Some lease it, and pass the lease costs on.

So, if you start out and try to keep current, the price difference of a leap forward to a larger sensor back won't be quite as bad as taking the hit all at once.
 
Hi Marc,

> The discord has reared it's head because MF is an arena fast becoming > to expensive for the amateur. While we most certainly still have film, > the lion's share of advancements are digital ones... as is the future.

Except for the fact that (most) every film MF camera on eBay sells to someone...someone who probably wouldn't/couldn't have afforded it previously because the price of MF film cameras is really down. Personally, I think it's great...since you can buy the camera of your (film) dreams for pennies on the dollar. Of course, this situation will eventually die down, as the supply dwindles and these cameras get older and fall out of repair etc., but probably not in my lifetime...and I'm not *that* old ;-).

Regards,

Austin
 
From your lips to God's ears Austin... since I just spent a king's ransom on a 949 scanner.

I don't think availability of good old MF gear will the issue. Film will be ... at least color film and processing.

That the selling environment is fueled by low MF prices tells you something ... namely there just isn't any demand for it. Good for those who really want it. Bad for those who want to move it.

I refused to sell for pennies on the dollar (an exaggeration actually), because digital is an alternative way to revive their value and assure the future.

But, I think you're right ... for the casual shooter, film will be around for quite awhile ... restricted perhaps, more expensive perhaps, but there. Especially B&W, which is what I'm most concerned about.
 
Hi Marc,

> From your lips to God's ears Austin... since I just spent a king's > ransom on a 949 scanner.

Aye! A wise choice that was!

I still use my two Leaf45s, and they work just fantastic for B&W. In a few years, when a 949 shows up on eBay for short money, I'll probably get one. But, for B&W, the Leaf45 is in a class by it self.

> I don't think availability of good old MF gear will the issue. Film > will be ... at least color film and processing.

I'm not worried. I believe it'll be around for some time to come. We just went through this discussion on another list, and if you check B&H for a count of what films they have available in 120...the list is staggering.

> Especially B&W, which is what I'm most concerned > about.

Also, it is a lucrative business...not for a billion dollar company, for for much smaller, private companies. It's a hundreds of million dollar business. Small companies will step in...it's not high technology, especially B&W films.

Don't worry! Be happy! Imacon, Hasselblad, Zeiss lenses...what more could you want? I hope you have a nice quadtone printer for your B&Ws ;-)

Regards,

Austin
 
Marc and Austin:

I surly hope you guys are right about film. As of today I am looking for a place to have my slide film processed, my last source quit.

Regards:

Gilbert
 
Hi Gilbert,

> I surly hope you guys are right about film. As of today I am looking > for a place to have my slide film processed, my last source quit.

C41 is really easy, but sure, E6 is getting less easy to find local processing. I'd find a mail order place...there should be quite a few of them around. If you do find a good place you can mail your E6 to, please let me know. I haven't done slides in a while, but still have some slide film I'd love to shoot...and get processed!

Here is one place that I found doing a quick web search for "e6 processing":

http://www.colorservices.com/

And you can even get E6 easily done in Maine, at three locations none the less:

http://mainecoastphoto.com/e-6.htm

Regards,

Austin
 
Marc,

Any idea what size the files will be for a full size sensor?

What numbers do you think you can sell for a reasonable profit
with current technology?

If not the handling the pricing will probably kill this development.
These assumptions are based on what is available now.
Of course we never know what the future may bring us.
 
Austin:

Thanks for the suggestions. This morning I did locate the Kodak lab that was actually processing my 35mm E6. They told me that they did not do any mail order, nor did they do 120 in house. So, I do have an opportunity although it is a 40 mile drive and for 120 50 miles.

I do like your Maine suggestion. I drove there last May during the deluge, so I would really like to return.
happy.gif


Regards:

Gilbert
 
Hi Gilbert,

> Thanks for the suggestions.

You're welcome.

> I do like your Maine suggestion. I drove there last May during the > deluge, so I would really like to return.

I am in Harvard, MA. I am going to have to find a mail order C41 and E6 lab my self. I'd like it to be somewhat local, so my film doesn't have to spend so much time in transit. I'm sure I can find someone close. I used to use a place called New England Color Labs when I was a professional, but I don't know if they are still in business any more.

Regards,

Austin
 
> [Gilbert...A&I sells E6 mailers @ B&H. Can send 35mm or 120. Where > do you live?

Pete > ]
 
"Any idea what size the files will be for a full size sensor?

What numbers do you think you can sell for a reasonable profit
with current technology?

If not the handling the pricing will probably kill this development.
These assumptions are based on what is available now."

The technology already exists. What is available now is a Seitz 6X17 digital camera that produces a 160 meg RAW file !!! Dalsa is the sensor maker. At 6X17 it is a scan back that writes the 6X17 image in 1 second. But it can be set to shoot 6X6, 6X9, 6X15 or 6X17.

Sensitivity is impacted by the size selected and ranges from ISO 500 to 10,000. (10,000 !!! )

Of course at $38,581 USD for the full version, this is priced for photographers like Bill Gates, A Saudi Prince and Donald Trump : -)

However, the current 39 meg. backs are $30,000. So, for a mere $8.500. more ....

The point is, it can and is being done. Dalsa calls their new sensor the D3, and it could well find it's way into the mainstream backs currently using Dalsa sensors ... like Leaf, etc.

A 6X6 sensor can be done, but it's a question of will it be done? If it is, it most likely won't be Hasselblad ( which is ironic ). They've committed pretty hard to 645. BUT, the Hy6 may impact all this since it will be able to use the area ... as will any view camera solution. Again, tilts and shifts are an important aspect for a lot of commercial photography, not just architectural work.

Well see what happens in the coming months and years.

As to file size for a near 6X6 sensor, see my attachment. Quite manageable actually.


26534.jpg
 
Marc,

I certainly did not want to disturb your dreams of a full sensor.
You are entitled to those.

My thoughts were not about whether it is possible or not but about the economical possibility of full size.
More than conventional photography the digital era is ruled by economics.

It seems Hasselblad has chosen for new shorter lenses with the 28 mm.
That is what I was trying to say.
The old 500 system is far from dead even when we are strongly pushed
towards the H series.

When other suppliers for digibacks will be marketing a full size
sensor for the 500 cameras I am sure Hasselblad will have to follow.

BTW thanks for your help and posts to the forum.
It is a pleasure to read those.

Paul
 
Paul

I fully agree. It is a pleasure to read Marcs contributions . I am very glad , that he shares his experience with other users of this forum .
As far as the full sensor is concerned , i think , we should decide between dream and need .
Of course , i would like to have a full sensor back . No crop factor , true wide angle shooting ,
and enormous image sizes would be possible . Great .
On the other side , i believe , it would not only require a bigger sensor , but the data path (electronics) to the image bank or CF-CARD would require a redesign to esteblish a fast data transfer for the much bigger files .
So the cost would shurely be very very high , and who will then be willing to buy that gear ?
Who will need that gear ? The only chance i see for a full format sensor is , that the cost could be dropped dramaticaly . This might happend , but shurely not by "tomorrow"

Jürgen and my new friend : tilt sensor
z04_auslachen.gif
 
Hi Jurgen et. al.,

A full frame sensor does not mean more data necessarily. The physical size of the sensor has no necessarily direct bearing on the amount of data. It's a matter of the physical size of the sensor cells. You can have a full frame 58mm x 58mm sensor that gives the same amount of data as a sensor 1/2 it's size, if they have the same number of sensor cells. But, the larger physical size sensor will have larger physical size sensor cells, and obviously, the smaller physical size sensor will have smaller physical size cells.

Smaller sensor cells can have a detrimental effect, as they may give lower quality data than larger cells. Photons have a physical size, and a sensor cell has only so much surface area. The more surface area a sensor cell has, the more sensitive it is...and can have a higher dynamic range.

Regards,

Austin
 
Yes Austin

I was thinking of a full format sensor with the same sensor cell size , than the current 39MP
sensor . That would mean an enormous resolution but also much more data .
Or , please correct me , is my logic wrong here ?

Jürgen
 
Hi Jurgen,

Having X cells per square millimeter (for some value of X) results in more data if your sensor size goes from (say) 35x35mm to 56x56mm. You could also make X go down (cells each become bigger) and grow the sensor to 56x56mm, this could (for the right value of X) keep the amount of data the same.

Whether the last option makes much sense is another question. Most likely, when going to 56x56mm you want to reduce X somewhat to get bigger cells (less noise at high ISO typically). With the simultaneous growth of the sensor you will then AND get a better quality AND more data. This is a very interesting tradeoff, based on a lot of factors, much more factors than the simplistic model I just described.

Wilko
 
In reality, the image quality gain from 22 meg 645 to 39 meg 645 isn't 2X.

So, a 54X54 sensor with the same pixel dimensions as the 22 meg 645 sensors would be phenomenal.

Redesign the Image Bank? Already done. I have it. Latest HC Firmware update accepts Sandisk Extreme IV 4 gig CFs. Next round of firmware will include the 8, 12, and 16 gig cards now available.

Data transfer is already being improved on the cameras also. The new Aptus 75s has a much faster transfer and considerably larger buffer. My Aptus 75 will be upgraded in March.

The transfer of data from the H3D/39 to the new Image Bank II is virtually instantaneous ... held back only by the limits of the camera ... which is also getting faster.

As mentioned, all this is just a matter of "how much?" $$$$$ !

Again, these developments are aimed at the professional who makes money with the gear, and in that regard they are just tools of the trade.

That's why I said that MF digital is fast pricing itself out of the advanced amateur market.

On the brighter side, I just scanned a film shot taken in the fresh snow. It's a reminder of my wedding work which doesn't start up until Spring. Funny how different a place where weddings take place looks in the dead of winter. Hasselblad 503CW, 50/4, Kodak TM 400CN scanned on Imacon 949 @ 6300 dpi (talk about a huge file : -)


26540.jpg
 
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