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CFV BACK SECOND TRY
- Thread starter jotloob
- Start date
polypal
Active Member
Hello Jürgen,
I am glad to see your good sense of humour has not suffered from all this.
" I have got the special nudes studio feature".
I was about to mention that a tilt sensor can only be found in a gaming machine as far as I know.
Maybe you have the wrong device and the slot where you have put the CF cards in
is meant for coins.
I am curious what kind of excuse Hasselblad comes up with for this misery.
Paul
I am glad to see your good sense of humour has not suffered from all this.
" I have got the special nudes studio feature".
I was about to mention that a tilt sensor can only be found in a gaming machine as far as I know.
Maybe you have the wrong device and the slot where you have put the CF cards in
is meant for coins.
I am curious what kind of excuse Hasselblad comes up with for this misery.
Paul
Jürgen:
I hope you write a very short and to the point letter. You should also include the hyperlinks to these threads, and mention how many may read them.
Regards:
Gilbert
P.S. If the CFV back fails overall and they discontinue it, and film dies, I'll have a lot of paperweights, and perhaps an HDD video camera.
I hope you write a very short and to the point letter. You should also include the hyperlinks to these threads, and mention how many may read them.
Regards:
Gilbert
P.S. If the CFV back fails overall and they discontinue it, and film dies, I'll have a lot of paperweights, and perhaps an HDD video camera.
I feel the same way Gilbert.
IMO all this is proof that the news editors are right ... people gravitate to bad news more than good.
These 2 "bad news" threads have generated more posts in a relatively short time than all the positives have over the past year.
I use the CFV. Thousands of images, scores of jobs, zero problems. I know quite a few fellow Hasselblad shooters with the CFV. They have no problems. Jurgen is the only one with a problem CFV that I've heard of (not that there aren't others). But to blow it out of proportion is a cancer that can kill the whole V digital solutions, not just this specific back.
I've used Hasselblad digital support, and service with no problems. I just got an Image Bank II for use with both my Hasselblad backs, and couldn't make it work. I called my dealer, and in 20 minutes he got the answer from tech support ... it was a simple mistake on our part.
From what I can tell, the overall derogatory comments and allusions to junk and fujiblad are being made by those with no experience actually using this gear. It glosses over the fact that this digital equipment is on the job in many, many studios day-in and day-out helping photographers make photographs for a living, not just talk about making photographs, or waxing nostalgically about "the way it was". We may still have an option to use film. They don't. Commercial photography IS digital now.
In the past months, I've been communicating back and forth with managers of the V division of Hasselblad. I am trying to persuade them to push forward the CFV and eventually introduce one with a larger square sensor. This is not outside the realm of possibility ... as such a sensor has been hinted at for the future of the Hy6. We just have to keep the damned thing alive until then. Screw-ups like Hasselblad made in this case certainly don't help accomplish that task, and neither does pouring gas on the flame either.
In short, I love the V system and sure the hell don't want a gear closet full of paperweights either.
IMO all this is proof that the news editors are right ... people gravitate to bad news more than good.
These 2 "bad news" threads have generated more posts in a relatively short time than all the positives have over the past year.
I use the CFV. Thousands of images, scores of jobs, zero problems. I know quite a few fellow Hasselblad shooters with the CFV. They have no problems. Jurgen is the only one with a problem CFV that I've heard of (not that there aren't others). But to blow it out of proportion is a cancer that can kill the whole V digital solutions, not just this specific back.
I've used Hasselblad digital support, and service with no problems. I just got an Image Bank II for use with both my Hasselblad backs, and couldn't make it work. I called my dealer, and in 20 minutes he got the answer from tech support ... it was a simple mistake on our part.
From what I can tell, the overall derogatory comments and allusions to junk and fujiblad are being made by those with no experience actually using this gear. It glosses over the fact that this digital equipment is on the job in many, many studios day-in and day-out helping photographers make photographs for a living, not just talk about making photographs, or waxing nostalgically about "the way it was". We may still have an option to use film. They don't. Commercial photography IS digital now.
In the past months, I've been communicating back and forth with managers of the V division of Hasselblad. I am trying to persuade them to push forward the CFV and eventually introduce one with a larger square sensor. This is not outside the realm of possibility ... as such a sensor has been hinted at for the future of the Hy6. We just have to keep the damned thing alive until then. Screw-ups like Hasselblad made in this case certainly don't help accomplish that task, and neither does pouring gas on the flame either.
In short, I love the V system and sure the hell don't want a gear closet full of paperweights either.
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Marc
I think you contribution is not quite fair .
Yes , it is correct , that i do not have much experience with digital photography , but i have been working for 30 years in the computer hard and software buisness .
To handle a CFV back properly does not require a years training . Most of the handling is self explaining . And with a good portion of logic , and thats what i claim to have , one can handle that CFV BACK.
But you can't handle a CFV BACK that is failing . And thats what it does . And also after a repair .
I love my V-SYSTEM and i want the CFV BACK , because i believe it is a good gear . Just yesterday evening , a friend of mine reported his delight about that CFV BACK , as he could try it in a studio . Electronics can fail after 20 years , or if you are unlucky right away . I know that from my experience . So i just was unlucky , as my CFV BACK just keeps failing .
Many others don't . But would you consider , recieving the tilt sensor warning at 15C , is just a stupid guys handling failure ? ? ? A guy with no experience ? ? ?
I sit here very patient and try to figure out the best way to get a new (replacement) CFV BACK , and i have , i no way been emotional and never blamed all HASSELBLAD DIGI GEAR as beeing bad products .
Also , Marc , you should recognize , that there is a different handling in a warranty case here in germany , in comparison to your country .
I think you contribution is not quite fair .
Yes , it is correct , that i do not have much experience with digital photography , but i have been working for 30 years in the computer hard and software buisness .
To handle a CFV back properly does not require a years training . Most of the handling is self explaining . And with a good portion of logic , and thats what i claim to have , one can handle that CFV BACK.
But you can't handle a CFV BACK that is failing . And thats what it does . And also after a repair .
I love my V-SYSTEM and i want the CFV BACK , because i believe it is a good gear . Just yesterday evening , a friend of mine reported his delight about that CFV BACK , as he could try it in a studio . Electronics can fail after 20 years , or if you are unlucky right away . I know that from my experience . So i just was unlucky , as my CFV BACK just keeps failing .
Many others don't . But would you consider , recieving the tilt sensor warning at 15C , is just a stupid guys handling failure ? ? ? A guy with no experience ? ? ?
I sit here very patient and try to figure out the best way to get a new (replacement) CFV BACK , and i have , i no way been emotional and never blamed all HASSELBLAD DIGI GEAR as beeing bad products .
Also , Marc , you should recognize , that there is a different handling in a warranty case here in germany , in comparison to your country .
Simon, nothing rock solid confirmed. But pretty well documented by those in the know. It isn't surprising actually. The whole DMR solution hinged on the relationship between Leica and Imacon. Hasselblad acquires Imacon, Leica was in discussions with Sinar, You do the math.
Leica is closed mouth about a R-10. As usual, there is speculation about one, but I'm not holding my breath. Allegedly there is new firmware for the DMR coming, and by law Leica must support the DMR with service. But gone are the days of getting a Leica and passing it on to your Grandkids.
On the Leica Users forum, we have been discussing the R-10, and I even took a stab at designing one (see below).
Most R users agree that a full frame, 16 meg. 16 bit sensor in a dedicated R digital body would now make sense. Many would like focus confirmation in the viewfinder like the RX, and I've suggested a ISOA option ( Auto ISO selection by the camera like Pentax has where you select the aperture and shutter speed and the camera adjusts the ISO). Note the larger LCD screen that more closely realizes the 35mm ratio.
Leica is closed mouth about a R-10. As usual, there is speculation about one, but I'm not holding my breath. Allegedly there is new firmware for the DMR coming, and by law Leica must support the DMR with service. But gone are the days of getting a Leica and passing it on to your Grandkids.
On the Leica Users forum, we have been discussing the R-10, and I even took a stab at designing one (see below).
Most R users agree that a full frame, 16 meg. 16 bit sensor in a dedicated R digital body would now make sense. Many would like focus confirmation in the viewfinder like the RX, and I've suggested a ISOA option ( Auto ISO selection by the camera like Pentax has where you select the aperture and shutter speed and the camera adjusts the ISO). Note the larger LCD screen that more closely realizes the 35mm ratio.
Didn't say anything was your fault Jurgen. Pointing out possible user errors wasn't an indictment of you, it was an attempt to help based on previous user experience. Obviously you have a defective back. Service may well be not the same as here in the US. The US market has always been a strong one for Hasselblad, so it stands to reason the service network may also be stronger.
Despite the history lesson on Hasselblad/Imacon as to why the problems, they most certainly aren't the only one struggling with entry to the electronic imaging world on any scale near to the days of film, nor is it confined to grand European brands.
Kyocera/Contax failed outright. Mamiya is struggling. Bronica flopped. Nikon can't make a full frame camera and lost huge amounts of business to Canon. There are just as many or more horror stories with finicky Sinar digital systems and Phase One backs. Until recently, Leaf was struggling with the Aptus backs producing "center-folding" where half the file was different than the other half ! If the Hy6 fails to take off, Rollie may well walk off into the sunset.
On the bright side, those left are all trying. My H3D/39 is a fantastic machine. Hasselblad made it so I can use it on a view camera where the H2D was purely dedicated to the H system. I am securing a Rollie XAct view camera and some Rodenstock Digital lenses ... which will now increase my capability and flexibility. Once the firmware and software was fixed, my Aptus is humming along and saved my entire RZ system from the auction block where it would be basically worthless. It's earning it's way once again.
This has become a tougher business to be in no matter how talented you are. It now takes an enormous investment in time and effort to meet the demands and expectations of clients. In my experience, these companies are trying. Not always successfully, but at least they just didn't give up ... so forgive me if don't just give up on them.
I really don't want to live in a world of photography where you only have a couple of choices ... Canon or Canon.
Despite the history lesson on Hasselblad/Imacon as to why the problems, they most certainly aren't the only one struggling with entry to the electronic imaging world on any scale near to the days of film, nor is it confined to grand European brands.
Kyocera/Contax failed outright. Mamiya is struggling. Bronica flopped. Nikon can't make a full frame camera and lost huge amounts of business to Canon. There are just as many or more horror stories with finicky Sinar digital systems and Phase One backs. Until recently, Leaf was struggling with the Aptus backs producing "center-folding" where half the file was different than the other half ! If the Hy6 fails to take off, Rollie may well walk off into the sunset.
On the bright side, those left are all trying. My H3D/39 is a fantastic machine. Hasselblad made it so I can use it on a view camera where the H2D was purely dedicated to the H system. I am securing a Rollie XAct view camera and some Rodenstock Digital lenses ... which will now increase my capability and flexibility. Once the firmware and software was fixed, my Aptus is humming along and saved my entire RZ system from the auction block where it would be basically worthless. It's earning it's way once again.
This has become a tougher business to be in no matter how talented you are. It now takes an enormous investment in time and effort to meet the demands and expectations of clients. In my experience, these companies are trying. Not always successfully, but at least they just didn't give up ... so forgive me if don't just give up on them.
I really don't want to live in a world of photography where you only have a couple of choices ... Canon or Canon.
najobskalf
Member
Marc, I sincerely hope you do succeed in influencing Hasselblad in that direction.
Mind you, the old C type 40mm makes a very handsome paperweight, although I still prefer Caithness weights, even though they have no shutters.
Mind you, the old C type 40mm makes a very handsome paperweight, although I still prefer Caithness weights, even though they have no shutters.
"I heard a rumour today that Nikon could be announcing a full frame DSLR at PMA- a D3?"
From your lips to God's ears John. Although that has been the rumor for quite awhile. If they do, I hope they don't stumble. Rumor is that Canon will also unleash it's next salvo at the competition ... a D5 sized Pro tank with 20+ meg. full frame. Yikes!
I use Canon a lot, but have zero passion for anything they make. Can't explain exactly why, just don't.
Bojan, I'd doubt they'll do it unless the technology is supported by someone else ... like a big sensor for the Hy6 .... which would trump Hasselblad's commitment to 645.
From your lips to God's ears John. Although that has been the rumor for quite awhile. If they do, I hope they don't stumble. Rumor is that Canon will also unleash it's next salvo at the competition ... a D5 sized Pro tank with 20+ meg. full frame. Yikes!
I use Canon a lot, but have zero passion for anything they make. Can't explain exactly why, just don't.
Bojan, I'd doubt they'll do it unless the technology is supported by someone else ... like a big sensor for the Hy6 .... which would trump Hasselblad's commitment to 645.
jotloob
Well-Known Member
I have never thought of buying a CANON or NIKON digital gear in any way , or any other so called 35mm digi gear because i would have to buy new lenses as well . I have all V-SYSTEM lenses i desire and want to keep them busy .
But i have come to a point again , where i have already been before i decided to go for the CFV BACK . Should i rather go for a scanner like the IMACON 848 or FLEXTIGHT X1/X5 instead of a digiback ?
This idea comes up again , because i do not know , how i get on with my CFV disaster .
A friend of mine owns a NIKON D200 and always tries to convince me , that i would not need anything more expensive than that , and that he can do all further raise of quality in photo shop .
But i have come to a point again , where i have already been before i decided to go for the CFV BACK . Should i rather go for a scanner like the IMACON 848 or FLEXTIGHT X1/X5 instead of a digiback ?
This idea comes up again , because i do not know , how i get on with my CFV disaster .
A friend of mine owns a NIKON D200 and always tries to convince me , that i would not need anything more expensive than that , and that he can do all further raise of quality in photo shop .
Jürgen,
I may suggest a little heresy, but you can still shoot your V-system with digital using a Phase One P20. I'm shooting with a Kodak ProBack plus, which has been great, but it is limited only to ISO 100. To overcome this problem, I bought a demo V96C from a dealer (with return privileges) and tried it out for a weekend. The color was pretty good, but when I found out that custom white can only be done tethered, the V96C went back to the dealer.
I've now got a Phase One P20 on order. An important thing keeping the V-mount alive is the fact that view cameras and the Flexbody can all be used with the V-mount. If Hasselblad doesn’t work out for you (you should be demanding an unconditional refund), then maybe you can consider Phase. They are selling new P20 units with a 1-year warranty for $7700-7900 in the US. I hope I don't get strung up for my politically incorrect suggestions!
Larry
I may suggest a little heresy, but you can still shoot your V-system with digital using a Phase One P20. I'm shooting with a Kodak ProBack plus, which has been great, but it is limited only to ISO 100. To overcome this problem, I bought a demo V96C from a dealer (with return privileges) and tried it out for a weekend. The color was pretty good, but when I found out that custom white can only be done tethered, the V96C went back to the dealer.
I've now got a Phase One P20 on order. An important thing keeping the V-mount alive is the fact that view cameras and the Flexbody can all be used with the V-mount. If Hasselblad doesn’t work out for you (you should be demanding an unconditional refund), then maybe you can consider Phase. They are selling new P20 units with a 1-year warranty for $7700-7900 in the US. I hope I don't get strung up for my politically incorrect suggestions!
Larry
"A friend of mine owns a NIKON D200 and always tries to convince me , that i would not need anything more expensive than that , and that he can do all further raise of quality in photo shop."
If that were generally true, then all the professional photographers buying Imacon, Phase One, Sinar, Leaf, etc. digital backs are spending a lot of money for nothing.
The scanner is of course an option. At the level of scanner you're talking about, it isn't a matter that you'd be choosing lesser quality.
I'm not quite sure what custom white balance gets you when shooting unteatherd. These are RAW files. To do a custom WB you have to shoot a white card, then change it if the lighting changes. If you do that with the first shot, and Flexcolor is set-up properly, you WB that shot and the rest fall into line automatically.
But, I certainly wouldn't want to disuade anyone from looking at Phase One. I use 2 different brands of digital backs myself ( Imacon and Leaf ). I also use the full version of Phase One's Capture One, and it's a good program.
If that were generally true, then all the professional photographers buying Imacon, Phase One, Sinar, Leaf, etc. digital backs are spending a lot of money for nothing.
The scanner is of course an option. At the level of scanner you're talking about, it isn't a matter that you'd be choosing lesser quality.
I'm not quite sure what custom white balance gets you when shooting unteatherd. These are RAW files. To do a custom WB you have to shoot a white card, then change it if the lighting changes. If you do that with the first shot, and Flexcolor is set-up properly, you WB that shot and the rest fall into line automatically.
But, I certainly wouldn't want to disuade anyone from looking at Phase One. I use 2 different brands of digital backs myself ( Imacon and Leaf ). I also use the full version of Phase One's Capture One, and it's a good program.
Marc,
You may be confusing custom white balance with the Custom White function in Flexcolor. The equivalent function in C1 is called Lens Cast Calibration (LCC). It is used to remove lens casts when tilting or shifting (or using very wide lenses). This is usually seen as cyan and magenta casts in the image. Unfortunately, Flexcolor's Custom White can only be done when tethered, while the C1 LCC function can be done in post-processing.
You may be confusing custom white balance with the Custom White function in Flexcolor. The equivalent function in C1 is called Lens Cast Calibration (LCC). It is used to remove lens casts when tilting or shifting (or using very wide lenses). This is usually seen as cyan and magenta casts in the image. Unfortunately, Flexcolor's Custom White can only be done when tethered, while the C1 LCC function can be done in post-processing.
> I'm not a pro, but I do have several Hasselblad cameras/lenses. =20 > Consider me an avid "amateur".
> I thought the same thing, but ended up getting a D70 and a F5 =20 > recently, along with about half a dozen lenses...why?....since 9/11 =20=
> I have been having more and more problems carrying the larger/bulky =20=
> 6x6 gear on airlines. I always have to pack plenty of film (since =20 > 120/220 is not guaranteed to be available at the local drug store), =20=
> and having each and every roll smeared is getting to be a real =20 > pain. Also, a full complement of 6x6 gear almost always has to be =20 > checked, and I fear what happens to it when it is "out of sight". =20 > The other gear will fit under the airline seat or in carryon, and I =20=
> know I can get film ( and probably cards too) when I get to my =20 > destination w/out any problems should the need arise.
Oh, and why did I go for the older Nikon gear as opposed to new? =20 There just is not that much difference (quality wise) between 6Mp and =20=
10Mp , at least for my purposes, when the cost is as high as 5X more =20 for the 10Mp camera.
> I thought the same thing, but ended up getting a D70 and a F5 =20 > recently, along with about half a dozen lenses...why?....since 9/11 =20=
> I have been having more and more problems carrying the larger/bulky =20=
> 6x6 gear on airlines. I always have to pack plenty of film (since =20 > 120/220 is not guaranteed to be available at the local drug store), =20=
> and having each and every roll smeared is getting to be a real =20 > pain. Also, a full complement of 6x6 gear almost always has to be =20 > checked, and I fear what happens to it when it is "out of sight". =20 > The other gear will fit under the airline seat or in carryon, and I =20=
> know I can get film ( and probably cards too) when I get to my =20 > destination w/out any problems should the need arise.
Oh, and why did I go for the older Nikon gear as opposed to new? =20 There just is not that much difference (quality wise) between 6Mp and =20=
10Mp , at least for my purposes, when the cost is as high as 5X more =20 for the 10Mp camera.
keith_laban
Member
As I understand it the Hy6 is a dual platform camera accepting 6x45 and 6x6 film backs as well as many of the current range of digital backs. Can anyone here confirm that anyone has ever said that anyone plans to make or will make a full frame (56x56mm) digital back for this camera, or is this just the wishful thinking of a group of square shooters?
polypal
Active Member
It is wishfull thinking as far as I know.
The cost for sensors this large would be so high that there is no market for them.
Besides that the files for these images will be far to big to handle.
There is no operational need for them besides the fact that the correction factor for existing lenses will disappear.
The chances that new shorter lenses will be available in time are better.
For 35 mm originated DSLR these lenses are in good supply now.
You never know what new developments may bring so keep wishing.
The cost for sensors this large would be so high that there is no market for them.
Besides that the files for these images will be far to big to handle.
There is no operational need for them besides the fact that the correction factor for existing lenses will disappear.
The chances that new shorter lenses will be available in time are better.
For 35 mm originated DSLR these lenses are in good supply now.
You never know what new developments may bring so keep wishing.
I read somewhere that the developers of the Hy6, "hinted" at the possibility as way of pointing out the long term advantage of this more open system approach. Film isn't what
will sell this system to the commercial shooters who are the prime target for the Hy6, and with film out of the equasion, there is less advantage over a 645 system ... unless there is something else coming down the road ... or so the Hy6 folks want you to believe.
While a larger sensor may be prohibitive now, that was the same situation not that long ago
with 6 meg 35mm sized MF backs ... then came the square 16 meg ones, then the near 645 ones @ 22 meg. which jumped to 39 meg one year later.
MF camera companies don't make sensors, they exploit ones developed by those who do.
Files to big to handle? How big do you think a CF-39MS (MultiShot) is Paul? 4X as big @ 200 meg compressed 3FR file size each. How about a CF/22 MS 16 shot @ 480 meg compressed 3FR RAW? These are done on a regular basis in studios all over the world. Huge final files. The computers are moving at light speed now. 16 gigs of RAM and 2 terabyte partitioned HDs already available from Mac. More to come.
MF Lenses ... as far as I can tell, there is one cropped frame lens now ... the HC/28mm. None of the new AF lenses for the Hy6 are cropped frame. No one has mentioned them either as far as I know.
One of the driving apsects of commercal digital photography are the issues with tilts and shifts. A larger square sensor would help that a lot. So, that is where the wish comes from.
I'm investing in a Rollie Xact and view camera lenses which will assure I'm ready for anything that may come, while being able to do tilts and shifts with my current digital backs.
will sell this system to the commercial shooters who are the prime target for the Hy6, and with film out of the equasion, there is less advantage over a 645 system ... unless there is something else coming down the road ... or so the Hy6 folks want you to believe.
While a larger sensor may be prohibitive now, that was the same situation not that long ago
with 6 meg 35mm sized MF backs ... then came the square 16 meg ones, then the near 645 ones @ 22 meg. which jumped to 39 meg one year later.
MF camera companies don't make sensors, they exploit ones developed by those who do.
Files to big to handle? How big do you think a CF-39MS (MultiShot) is Paul? 4X as big @ 200 meg compressed 3FR file size each. How about a CF/22 MS 16 shot @ 480 meg compressed 3FR RAW? These are done on a regular basis in studios all over the world. Huge final files. The computers are moving at light speed now. 16 gigs of RAM and 2 terabyte partitioned HDs already available from Mac. More to come.
MF Lenses ... as far as I can tell, there is one cropped frame lens now ... the HC/28mm. None of the new AF lenses for the Hy6 are cropped frame. No one has mentioned them either as far as I know.
One of the driving apsects of commercal digital photography are the issues with tilts and shifts. A larger square sensor would help that a lot. So, that is where the wish comes from.
I'm investing in a Rollie Xact and view camera lenses which will assure I'm ready for anything that may come, while being able to do tilts and shifts with my current digital backs.
keith_laban
Member
As Marc has said larger files are not a problem, I'm already working with huge files from drum scans and adjustment layers.
With all those V series cameras out there it just doesn't seem logical to introduce yet another new system unless it is followed by a compatible full frame digital back.
Fingers crossed, and I love to put the 56mm square sensor on my ArcBody, but even if it does materialise will I be able to afford it?
With all those V series cameras out there it just doesn't seem logical to introduce yet another new system unless it is followed by a compatible full frame digital back.
Fingers crossed, and I love to put the 56mm square sensor on my ArcBody, but even if it does materialise will I be able to afford it?