The future of Hasselbladinfo.com

[dirk]

If I would have been in the shoes of HB and woud see how the MF market is shrinking, I would have done a double strategy:

1. Offer a low resolution digital back for the V-System System at very low price (maybe even just at production costs - around 3000-5000 Euro). Just to get V-users into digital photography and taste it, get more appetite and then add lenses & bodies later on.

2. An H-System camera at very aggressive price. Way below 10.000 Euro as a kit to seduce Fullframe 35mm customers. Just get them into the lensmount system. The rest will be easy.


But what they do is asking 12.000 Euro for a 50MP back for the V-System. Why should I buy this, if I can have a modern Pentax 645D with Kit lens, 40MP, weatherproof, very good AF and ISO upt to 1600, small and light body für 10.000 Euro? And an available adapter for V lenses.

Same with the H-System. Now they offer the H31 for around 13.000 Euro as a kit. Still too expensive.

HB can not survive buy selling only to pros. This market is shrinking too much. They need a broader customers base. And these customers do not have or are not willing to spend 20.000 Euro on one body and 3 lenses. They do not need neither 50 MP by the way

But to make a Leica me-too strategy with selling rebatched Sony NEX under their name as Leica did with Panasonic will not help them. That is too late.

It is time that someone gets into the board there, who knows something about photography and photographers needs.

Number crunchers kill a brand. We saw this with Kyocera/Contax. They launch products because of theoretically numbers in Power Point slides, not knowing at all what is really sellable on the market to get longterm growth with good margins.

IF HB continues to drive on the Luna road, they will end in the Kyocera parking slot.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[fotografz]

Time to get real:

Many of these posts always revert to waxing nostalgically for the good old days of the V, and bashing the H system ... mostly out of ignorance.

If a 6X6 camera with AF and state of the art interface that can also seamlessly use a film film back would have been so great and saved Hasselblad like the M9 saved Leica, then Rollie would not have gone bankrupt, had to reorganize, and now sells a handful of cameras to die-hards. The Hy6 was exactly where the V could have gone, yet it was/is a commercial failure. This happened despite strong support from leaf with the AFi platform (which Phase One now owns), and direct Sinar digital involvement.

I believe had Hasselblad pursued the same route with the V, there would be no Hasselblad today.

NO ONE makes a commercially affordable 6X6 sensor ... and now that the 35mm DSLRs are exploding with new high density sensor technology, it is highly unlikely any sensor maker will ever make a 56 X 56 sensor ... and if they did, who here could afford one? Wanting a 6X6 digital sensor and making one that someone can actually buy are two entirely different things.

The development of the H system has been one of migrating to a total systems camera in a digital age rather than a mechanical one. Some people do not seem to be able to accept that.

I look at EMelo's list of issues with the H system, and know exactly why he had the issues ... the cameras he chose weren't made to do what he wanted ... a different H camera was required. Nothing a little homework wouldn't have made clear. However vocal, it doesn't change the fact that people get angry at the H system mostly because they do not understand it.

Fact is, most knowledgable MFD users acknowledge the H camera to be the best MF camera available today, (perhaps with the exception of that handful of die-hard HY6 users) ... and that Phase One makes the most feature oriented digital backs for certain applications like field work.

IMO, Hasselblad is correct that their current Medium Format customer base is mostly pros or very dedicated art photography enthusiasts who make partial income with their camera. This "income oriented" market segment has been impacted heavily by the poor economy. So, Hasselblad is trying to move into the less vulnerable "Luxury" segment ... which is what lead to the ill conceived Lunar project.

IMO, rather than further developing the MF segment, which tends to be more practical/feature driven, Hasselblad has made a marketing error in prematurely abandoning a singular MF focus rather than increasing the value to cost ratio and aggressively countering the misconception that IQ is based only on meg count.

Regarding web forums ... most Pros do not participate in web debates and on-going forum discussions unless it solves immediate issues, or can promote their business somehow. BTW, there are more Hasselblad H users out there than most would guess ...

-Marc

I'll come back later with a few suggestions for this forum.

 

[fotografz]

Dirk, the Lunar panasonic comparison is not correct. Leica/Panny are not Luxury items in the way a Lunar is being marketed for $6,500. That is a much larger difference than between a Leica and a Panasonic camera.

Pentax already has an array of products to help fund better pricing on their MFD camera ... which is limited in use compared to any H modular camera choice. That comparison is unfair.

I do not think that there is a single prestige brand that has successfully downgraded their product to make it more affordable to more people, without severely eroding their long term brand value. Pentax is not Hasselblad.

I see the opportunities that Hasselblad missed as the following:

1) They have had a leg up on Phase One for a long time when it comes to the camera itself. If they had further widened that camera body gap, while vastly improving the digital backs ... they could have gained market share from Phase One ... who is STILL adding band-aids to the old Mamiya 645AF.

2) They could have been the first to introduce a larger than 35mm CMOS sensor camera using the newer dense sensor technologies being seen in the latest 35mm DSLRs. This would have been a better collaboration with Sony than what they are doing now.

-Marc

 

[dirk]

Hi Marc,

that is a very interesting discussion. I agree with almost all points you made ecept for two.

I mentioned a cheap digital back for the V-System, because I do think, that there is a big opportunity to keep costumers loyal to the brand, as long as they get something to work with. I am convinced, that as soon as a V user appreciates the advantages of digital photography, the next step to an H-System camera is not that big. Obviously a totally new designed system for digital photography is better than a patchwork solution for a 50 years old camera.

The two points I disagree with you is price point vs. loosing face for a brand and your opinion that HB can survive only with pros.

a) I do not think, that HB would erode their long term brand value while offering an enry level body. It all depends how you market it. Obviously you need to have less features, less MP etc. But you get NEW users into the lensmount. This is IMHO critical for longterm growth.

Where shall all the pros come from for future sales growth?

No pro will buy two H5 instead of one just to give HB growth in sales. So where shall HB grow? They can not increase prices anymore. Competition is to hard. So it has to come either over sales-volume or over new products.

Leica did 20 or so years ago a similar strategy with the Leica R4s and Leica R-E for significant reduced prices. But there was not enough differentiation to the R4 and R5 and production costs were the same. That was the problem with analog photography. All cameras could use the same film. But the idea was excellent. I know many peopel who bought thos cameras and who otherwise would have never started with Leica. They use still Leicas, but nowadays M8, M9 etc.

With digital sensors, you can really easy diferentiate. Offer an Hs with 24MP and a cheap but good kit lens for an aggressive price (significant below 10.000). And you will see that this is not eroding the image. It will bring new affluent customers, who would normally buy a Nikon or Canon or who already have those and just want to try MF-feeling. Once they start to use it, they will not stop anymore. They buy new lenses and sooner or later also new bodies with higher specs and bigger margins for HB. This market of affluent users is huge worldwide. And IMHO Pentax will have problems to compete here, since HB just has the better brand image and upgrade path for MF-costumers.

b) I know the sales numbers in Germany for HB. Germany is a big country and there are enough people with money. But sales numbers are really really low. There is no way for HB to survive with this small pro-segment. I do not know the numbers from the US, but I would doubt that they are proportionally that much higher. Otherwise there would not be a Lunar

Without a Leica S2 on the market and without the next round of 36MP 35mm DSLRs, HB might have made it only with pros, but this is not the case. Look how many people they fired etc., what HB is today compared to 3 years ago. And 3 years ago it was already not that good.

So I understand that HB tries new ways to get somehow new growth. This is good. But the alternative they have choosen with the Lunar is the wrong one.

I agree with you, that it is not fair to compare it with Leica/Panasonic cooperation. The Leica cooperation was kind of smart. They got the knowledge of Panasonic about digital photography they had no clue about. It was a win-win situation for both. And Leica learned a lot with this cooperation. But as you said. Different price segment and HB knows already enough about digital photography

I hope that HB will try also other new ways and recover. It would be a shame, if they would not survive.

 

[fotografz]

Dirk,

I never said it should all come from Pros.

I suggested that they missed an opportunity to grab more market share from Phase One this year with an improved H camera and more advanced digital backs.

I also suggested that a smaller sensor camera with H mount be offered maybe even a CMOS sensor ... an integrated DSLR type body (S2ish). Obviously, this could have been less expensive without offering a stripped down flagship camera.

H mount would get the new user into the lens system, and the path upwards would lead to the flagship.

Now, the is nowhere to go from the Sony Lunatic clones, except to the next Sony invention. There is no path to MFD from the Lunar.

-Marc

 

[Konrad]

Dirk is correct. A 56x56 sensor in a vicinity of $3000.- This would also specifically differentiate the H system from the V system and allow most likely to sell the device in significant numbers and turn a profit. But most importantly Hasselblad would regain an important back compatibility compliance factor and secure its name. The Lunar lunacy should be abandoned by any possible means. The licensed Zeiss brand Sony is using in such poor electromechanical packaging will turn people further away from any compact camera from Hasselblad. The Lunar price tag will immediately send customers laughing straight for the Leica M acquisition. Today, the entire picture is indeed sad and it appears that Hasselblad lost irreversibly a number of markets.

 

[fotografz]

A 56X56 digital V mount back for $3,000?

This kind of request is what must have the MF companies tearing their hair out.

Hasselblad doesn't make the sensors for their backs. They have to buy them from someone else, just like Phase one, Pentax, Leica and Sinar.

No one makes a 56X56 sensor, so Hasselblad would have to commission one ... which added to engineering a whole new back and electronics to use this 56X56 sensor would be a significant investment. If they gave it away as suggested, where would they make their profit? Not from camera sales. There are so many V cameras out in the world, who would buy a new one? Same for the Zeiss V lenses? Most people who would buy such a digital back already have the camera and lenses.

Getting new users into MF will become harder and harder. If one wants high resolution digital for $3,000, there is the Nikon D800 which has already stole sales from MFD ... the D800 has been successful, so that trend will continue. People will be more inclined to get a high meg 35mm DSLR than a stripped down MFD camera ... in fact, that has already been proven.

Hasselblad cannot compete against Canon and Nikon with a smaller Hasselblad DSLR that they designed themselves. They do not have the investment capital of these giant companies. So they turned to Sony ... the only company that is challenging Canon and Nikon, and has the investment capital. Sony also has something Hasselblad doesn't ... they make their own sensors, and they also make sensors for Nikon cameras ... including the sensor in the D800.

We may hate the Lunar ... however, we do not know the whole consumer picture and the people the camera is intended for. It may surprise all of us.

I will continue to forward the notion that Hasselblad should have upped the MFD game at the higher end ... an even better camera, even higher meg backs with newer sensor technology ... maybe be the first with a MF CMOS sensor, and capture a larger slice of the MF pie ... even if it is a smaller pie. They need the prestige to use for marketing any lesser camera with their Brand name on it.

BTW, the H5 is no slouch of a camera ... a Phase One employee even admitted it after experiencing the H5 at Photokina.

-Marc

 

[dirk]

@ Konrad

I did not say that a cheap sensor shall be 56x56. My point was that they should offer any kind of cheap sensor in a cheap entry level back to meet the price point between 3000-5000 Euro.

@ Marc

I misunderstood then your earlier posting. So we see it even more similar.

@ all

so lets go back to the original question. The future of this forum. What is the best way to survive if the environment is as hard as it is for Hasselblad users and an increasing number of Hassy user switch to other brands.

Maybe I should have also added the question how often the users actually use their Hassy for shooting images compared to the other equipment they have.

If the equipment is just sitting in the shelves and never gets used, there will be also not that much interest & activity in a pure Hassy Forum.

Best wishes

 

[dirk]

...
BTW, the H5 is no slouch of a camera ... a Phase One employee even admitted it after experiencing the H5 at Photokina.

-Marc

I would love to use that one....

Even the "small" H31, but I just can not afford them. This is a price range I can not justify to spend that amount for one of my hobbies.

 

[blowupster]

Well I'm not sure that the prise is the real probleme. If I compare to other digitals, the CFV's pixels is not so far from top 35mm cameras. In the early time the Hasselblad kit was the prize a new car.
A digital at 10'000 euro may be a resonable target. Why the M8 and next digital M are a succes: A lot of poeple waited it and there is no other model for digital Rangefinders.
Now the big advance for Hasselblad H is hard to maintain as 35mm camera get allways better and they began to offer better quality lenses. If Hasselblad offer a new 500 lines no doubt the succes will comme in this aera where no other offers anything.

Why V users will not convert to H if they did not yet ?
Prize is not the argument as you can get second hand H3-39 Kits for less than a new film 503CW Kit. The one who buy a very expensive M9 instead of a user friendly 35mm digital reflex camera, likes simple matter as speed fitted manualy, operture manualy and manual focus that's all. It's not the final product for a pro that need to make all type ot photography but the pro has a Canikon too in his bag.

The digital Hasselblad V is the only tool that go to this way but the production is stoped now, just to force V users to buy H.
When I heard that 56x56mm digital sensor will never comme it's the same song I heard that Leica M will never be digital before 2006 and the song that said that 24x36mm sensor is not possible for no retrofocus lenses (before 2009).
Of course it's possible too that sensor will not make the 56mm stop and the next step will be 4x5 for Alpa or Sinar. That will be the proof that technical argument was false. BTW if you watch 10 years ago the first 16Mpix back for Hasselbald V you will have the feeling that there is new technology later….except the Zeiss 40mm IF

About Hasselbladinfo: Why this forum is closed for unloged readers ? More visitors will help your finance. If you decide to open your field to other cameras (Canon Nikon Sony) then visitors will compare to a huge number or other forums that are allready known; it will be hard to offer more.

 

[dirk]

...
About Hasselbladinfo: Why this forum is closed for unloged readers ?...

???

It is not closed for guests. Or what do you mean with unlogged users?

 

[blowupster]

Notices Welcome to the Hasselbladinfo.com forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

 

[dirk]

Notices Welcome to the Hasselbladinfo.com forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

Hi

this is just a reminder, but you can read everything without beeing logged in. Only for spam protection you have to be logged in to post and to see images.

 

[dirk]

.... If you decide to open your field to other cameras (Canon Nikon Sony) then visitors will compare to a huge number or other forums that are allready known; it will be hard to offer more.

Actually I do not want to offer "more". Nor do I "want to" change anything.

I have not an active role in this decision. I am only a passive observer. I just observe that the traffic in this forum went down significantly over the last 3 years. And I only try to figure out what we can change so that it is increasing again.

If 300 users would be online each day and 100 posting per day would be written, we would not have started this poll

So in reaction to the absence of users, we have to think about what the reason for this behaviour is and whether we can change something so the current users come more frequently and post instead of only lurking.

Look at this thread. There are users who post here the first time although they are registerd since 2008. So what did we wrong that they did not participate yet? Have we been too much in the collectors corner? Have we had not enough images to show and discus? Do we wear blinders and forget to open the forum for things , the users are nowadays more interested in?

I do not not know. I just ask questions and collect the your answers

A forum is only as good as the interaction among the users. We only provide the platform to meet here. The content and direction has to come from the users.

The only thing I am sure about is, that we will switch the software. But this has nothing to do with the structure of Hassselbladinfo.com. The new software will just be more conveniant to use and offer better features

best wishes

 

[fotografz]

RE: The comparison isn't valid between Leica 35mm digital and a 56X56 sensor, which doesn't exist. Leica could not use existing 35mm sensors for the M8 because the lenses were to close to the sensors that were available then. Developments in micro-lense technology for digital sensors combined with firmware/software corrections allowed Leica to then offer a FF 35mm sensor. It is not the same thing ... one existed to be improved upon, and the other does not exist at all.

I repeat the notion that a square format camera with modern AF and digital capture that uses Zeiss and Schneider lenses already was offered, and failed to garner enough interest to make a good go of it.

Inexpensive and Medium Format may not be compatible terms. However, Pentax makes a very good 40 meg camera available for $8,800 that any Zeiss V lens can be used on.

Back on topic:

Hasselblad has been making premium cameras since before many of us were even born. The mechanical cameras were/are so good that many of them shoot as well as the day they were made ... which makes it a bit difficult to sell new ones in quantity : -)

The H camera is young by comparison. However, in fairly short order the H system has been refined to provide us with a very flexible modular system, wide range of excellent lenses, useful accessories like the HTS/1.5, and has the best AF system of any MF camera ... and actually with True Focus/APL, better AF than many 35mm cameras!

So, what can a forum provide?

Unfortunately, many forums become trouble shooting vehicles. This can lead to an impression that a system is less reliable or capable than it actually is. I tend to follow forums like this because I have a great deal of experience with both the V system and the H system.

Now there are those far more expert with the V system than I am that post here, but less so for the H system. I have used the H system since the H2/22 ... to the H2D/22 DNG camera; H3D/31 & 39, H3DII/31 & 39, H2F with film backs and a CF/39 Multi-shot back; to the H4D/40 and my current H4D/60 ... still thinking about the H5D/60 or H5D/200 Multi-shot.

As such, I see a good deal of mis-information and simple mis-conceptions about various H solutions, often presented as fact rather than opinion. The wrong choice of camera blamed on Hasselblad. I simply try to correct the information where I can or where it seems appropriate.

Often, how the V and H differ is the topic of conversation ... when in reality, they have many common photographic traits. One of the most important being that both the 500 series cameras and H camera were conceived as Leaf Shutter machines. The lenses are all leaf shutter. Why? The primary reason is that these cameras were/are used with lighting. Before 35mm took over wedding work, the most desirable camera was the Hasselblad 500 camera with Zeiss leaf-shutter lenses. It was also the ubiquitous choice of studio portrait shooters, and commercial photographers (sharing the lime-light to a small degree with the Mamiya RB/RZ which are also leaf-shutter machines).

When these cameras (V or H) are used in this manner, no 35mm system can compete. Doesn't matter how many meg, being able to use a high sync speed with full powered flash trumps every 35mm camera made. It is total control, and was designed that way. This is why so many Pros use these cameras ... commercial shooters, fashion shooters, higher end portrait shooters, and so on. Control.

Yet, this is rarely discussed or demonstrated ... despite being a KEY point of difference over all 35mm cameras and most Medium Format cameras, it is ignored. Why?

IMO, it is because enthusiasts are either afraid of flash, have seen nothing but poor examples of using strobes/flash, or are totally ignorant on the effective use of lighting. When you eliminate this advantage and compare it to a camera that can shoot available light up to 1/8000 shutter with a fast aperture lens, a leaf shutter camera becomes a liability ... because we have ignored its key advantage. I continue to shoot with a H camera because all of the optics are leaf-shutter lenses, not in spite of it.

I am not discounting other uses of these cameras in any way. Just pointing out that one of the primary reasons these cameras exist in the form they are today is for use of Leaf Shutter lenses.

Your thoughts?

-Marc

 

[dirk]

Hi Marc,

thanks for this for me new point of view. I am in general not a big fan of flash. Neither with 35mm, nor with MF. Mostly because I was never able to achieve for me pleasing results compared to the same image without flash. I prefered always more grain/noise inestaed of flash.

For me, what was always the biggest argument for MF the specific impression an image could give me. I would not call it Image Quality, because it is IMHO less a question of resolution. Even images on the web of Nikon D800 did not achieve this. The only digital cameras who give me a similar impressions are Sigma cameras with their Foveon Sensors. Especially the Sigma DP2M. Or analogue cameras. Part of this is the lack of AA filter, but this is not the whole story. Otherwise the nikon D800E should be able to achieve it.

I give you an example of a user of this forum. Ed, I hope you do not mind

http://www.flickr.com/photos/edbray/6150172299/

i just love this image of the man's face and alos the baby images. This is this clear and 3D effect I am after. If HB would only not be that expansive (for my budget)....

Best wishes


Woody von Ed Bray auf Flickr



Ethan Cat Hat von Ed Bray auf Flickr


This is by the way "only" an old H1 with an Imacon Ixpress 528C digital back (only 22MP!) and the 150mm lens. I just love these images !!!

 

[Swissblad]

Thanks for sharing those photos - pity Ed has drifted away from the Blad.

Marc's comments are valid and appreciated - and could serve as a point of focus - rather than my firewire conenction is not working again

If this forum is to expand, it would be nice if it were restricted to MF. ie and include ARCA etc.

There simply are enough NiCanon forums. Furthermore, there is a huge difference between using a D800 and a H/V system camera.

 

[fotografz]

We need more opinions here Dirk : -) To carry on the discussion anyway, I will continue ...

The example photos you show us are nice. I am pretty sure the baby one is using lighting ... the round reflections in the eyes look like a beauty dish was used. The man's face is interesting, but just a bit to "crispy" for my tastes ... but that doesn't lessen how good it is.

Obviously, there are more differences between Medium Format and 35mm than just high speed sync with lighting. The whole DOF aspect is different with MF compared to smaller sensor cameras for example. The Sigma DP cameras with Foveon sensor may deliver the impression of resolution, but will never look the same as a Medium Format image.

However, I point out high sync speed because it is specifically a strong Hasselblad advantage inherent with the 500 series and H series of cameras where EVERY lenses in the system is leaf-shutter ... yet almost never demonstrated or discussed on the Hasselblad forum here. Only some leaf shutter lenses exist for the Phase One camera, none for the Contax 645, no 200 series lens syncs beyond 1/90th, none for the Pentax 645D (unless there are some legacy leaf-shutter Pentax 645 lenses that work on that camera that I do not know about). These cameras only sync at 1/90 to 125th ... verses 1/500 or 1/800th.

IMO, Hasselblad could have pulled further ahead of Phase One's Mamiya based camera by making the H5 a dual shutter camera like the Leica S2. With the choice of up to 1/800th sync speed for use of strobes/flash ... OR up to 1/4000th shutter when shooting in ambient light ... the Hasselblad H photographer would have extended the useful application of the H system to include all types of photographic works. Imagine using the HC-100/2.2 wide open in bright ambient light.

I do not have to imagine such a thing ... I also use a Leica S2 with the Leica H to S adapter. I frequently use any of my Hasselblad HC or HCD lenses on the S2 ... with the choice of high sync to 1/750th shutter with lighting ... or I can shoot the same lens in ambient light up to 1/4000th shutter with a flip of a switch on the S2.

The wedding candid below is an example of high speed sync flash. The client wanted a shot with this specific background. The ambient lighting was brutal ... very bright backlighting of the subjects with direct sun reflecting off of the pool behind them. If I had exposed for the foreground subjects the background would have been washed out or completely blown out ... the very background that she wanted! I used the Hasselblad HC/50-II lens on the S2 with a shutter speed of 1/750, and used fill flash to balance the foreground exposure.

I also use strobes/flash in studio for a lot of "Fitness Competitors" portfolios ... this is where Medium Format simply kills any 35mm capture. I've posted a few of these here as examples. Both of theses are crops! They were made into very large posters for the client's work-out areas.

I do understand the issue of cost. Years ago, I had to borrow the money for just a 503CW camera. Enthusiasts often do not have the income from their gear to keep upgrading. Yet, many do it by placing a priority on acquiring their dream camera ... sometimes to the exclusion of any other camera or camera system. An H3D/31 is a fantastic image making camera and can be had for a decent price. Some of my best MFD images were made with that very camera. People get caught up in the upgrade syndrome and think these previous cameras to be inferior ... which is simply NOT the case. The sensor in the H4D/31 is the same one as in the much, much less expensive H3D/31. Good H lenses can be had for under $2,000 ... less than many new lenses for Nikon or Canon.

- Marc

 

[fotografz]

BTW, please look at the three "cowboy" images located here:

http://fotografz.smugmug.com/Photog...hotos/13131670_vTQtJB#!i=1576967674&k=KHdLbFp

• Hasselblad - Hasselblad H3D-31
• 250.0 mm
• ƒ/5
• 1/250 sec
• Center-Weighted Average
• ISO 200

These were for a small company that makes the water-proof "duster" coats being worn by the riders ... they were ambient light shots using a H3D-II with a 31 meg Hasselblad back. They were then enlarged for a trade show booth to 8 feet wide where viewers were right on top of the photos ... not standing 15 feet away. The lens was the older HC-150mm with the HC-1.7X extender. The new HC-150N is even better! Medium Format color is also another advantage. BTW, the Multi-shot backs have the most faithful color of any camera made ... which is why they are used by museums, scientific institutions, and commercial still life shooters.

-Marc

BTW, the Dynamo image on that page was using lighting and shot with the HCD28mm.

 

[Swissblad]

Thanks Marc for showing us what the old 31 back can do!