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The classic mechanical digital Hasselblad 503CWD

There is indeed a point of diminishing returns with digital capture as you increase the sensor size and meg count. However there are certain levels that need to be reached to produce commercial quality levels.

Very good images can be made with the 16 meg. 4X4 chip in a 96C Back on a 503CW. Better than can be produced with a 16 meg Canon 1DsMKII because the sensor is larger. This back can most likely be had for $4,000. or so.

I estimated a 54 meg 6X6 sensor would do for most applications I can think of. It isn't merely a matter of doing huge enlargements but also image quality itself. A 54 meg RAW file would translate into an approx. 310 meg Tiff file after processing. I think that roughly means a 16 bit, 24" X 24" image @ 300 ppi with no interpolation applied. Cost may be prohibitive today, but production advancements may alter that.

I doubt the latest backs will seem primitive in terms of RAW image quality. But the software, firmware and ISO sensitivities will make leaps forward ... some of which will be applicable to today's backs. Better viewing screens are right around the corner.

Bottom line, the V series cameras are very viable tools, and are a testimony to Victor Hasselblad's modular design concept.
 
I'm in total agreement Marc, especially with your final remark.

Interestingly the Hasselblad CEO said in his comments about a full frame 6x6 sensor being unlikely, that the coming major developments lie in software, firmware and sensor architecture - in otherwords, there is a lot more to get out what is now available in MF sensors. Probably a point of consolidation and detailed development, rather than just "more and bigger" - makes so much sense.

During this "phase" companies like Hasselblad can reap the returns from the R&D invested so far.
 
I think the developments in software and firmware will lead to workflow optimization, not improved image quality (look at what we got so far: colour profiling, re-arrangement of bytes and bits in new file formats, quicker transfer, software that tells us which shots came out and which didn't).

We need better sensors to improve image quality. And as it did before, "Bigger is Better" still holds.

There is however that "Good enough" thing: For many applications, a 54 MP back (apparently) is not needed. Even 16 MP may be 'too much' already.

So long live the hybrid-workflow: use relatively affordable digibacks when and where they suffice, revert to (scanned) film when they do not.
 
> I would think that rather on concentrating on "bigger is better", > it would be more useful to work on reducing noise, and getting > effective ISO up (say 12000 w/ the same noise level as 400). what I > wouldn't give for indoor "flashless" photography!
 
Actually, the most recent Imacon firmware upgrade for the HD cameras includes a Chromatic Aberration correction for lenses that have a data bus to tell the camera what lens is mounted. The actual correction is then automatically made when saving from the Flexcolor software. It actually works.

So, Q.G. , Image improvements can, and are being made via firmware and software improvements. Other image quality improvements are on their way. Software such as that found in PSCS2 that eliminate vignetting with super wide lenses already work extremely well and virtually eliminates the need for center filters. I suspect these will also become firmware/software corrections in time.

Noise isn't the only thing that will be improved with larger sensors. The new 39 meg backs are beginning to eliminate Moiré without the use of a filter in front of the sensor.
 
Helloo everyone,

Very nice product but priced too high for non pro's.

if i understand your comments, it's a non sense to wait a bigger sensor for my 503cw and 903swc because the additional quality is at a too high price.

why buy this one then????

I explain me...if the older models 96c or a proback have the same size and are 16Mp too?

what is the innovation or the evolution for accepting the high price of this back?

For that difference of money, it will be better a second hand 16Mp back and 2,3 lenses with or i'm wrong? ;))

Sure there is a lot of people on this forum that working with 16Mp back actually.
Big question: will they change only to have a bigger screen, cf cards or the newest image bank maybe with a faster transfer or capacity?

Simon, you told that hasselblad wouldn't make a greater sensor but was more to upgrade or make changes to the software....what i see is a new back maybe with new soft.

A new product at a high price... they want have a return from investisment, yes , normal.... but why not upgrade the soft only with the same back 96c and sell it cheaper, it would be more profitable for us and they (we are a lot non pro playing with V systems).

So the reality is.... that's a nice back well designed,.... maybe must i sell all my darkroom now and be digiman ;) or
sad.gif
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impatient to read everyone again,yepaaa
 
Marc,

You're right, software can improve image quality too.
But mostly it corrects the things introduced by sensors and the way they work. We do need better sensors (Meade's idea of a tripack-sensor, instead of using Bayer-patterns, for instance, would be a huge step forward. If only it worked properly.)

But yes, improvements in software will help us get better results.
 
Currently there is a slow down in the pixel war, as manufacturers concentrate to work on algorithms to reduce the the noise levels, increase dynamic range for higher contrast images, produce grain-free blacks, and increase exposure headroom.

For consumer 6-8 Megapixels will be enough, and prosumers at 8-16 Megapixels. Professional photographers will probably use from 16MP and up.

Current technology probably tops at around 45MP while R&D continues on new technology for the next round of megapixel war.

Those information are according to Phase One, Kodak and Dalsa engineers.
 
I'm sitting here laying out some ad concepts. I just shot a few images for them with a 22 meg H2D (soon to be 39 meg.) and I cannot imagine what the 39 meg will be like, since the 22 meg files are incredible when printed @ 13" X18".

Enough already. These cameras when used in a studio are set at ISO 50 or 100 and I still have to stop down to accommodate the Profoto strobes.

Now let's get the ISOs up and the noise at higher ISO's down.
 
> I might be tempted to cut the number by 1/2. The human eye can not > resolve more than 300 dpi when printed anyway. Sure there are > exceptions to all of this, but I wonder if the pixel race is fueled > by "need" or "perception"....like the difference between owning a > VW or a Porche. Neither is really getting "pushed to the limit" > when you drive in downtown St Louis at rush hour, but everyone sure > likes the "feel" of the bigger/badder machine...even if they don't > need it.
 
I think that a 6x6 camera with the capabilities of the H1 would be invigorating. I think that a more manual camera like the V series with the capabilities of a full frame digital imaging sensor would be invigorating. It's quietly disappointing that market dynamics have brought neither.

When the 205 TCC was introduced one of the new features was the databus connection. The ad copy noted that since it was a digital connection that the camera was ready for future developments. It's been disappointing that no future developments have tied into the databus connection as implemented on the F series cameras, until now--with the F series bodies having been dropped from production. Indeed, when the 555 ELD was introduced a databus connector was placed on the opposite side. I asked a Hasselblad representative why it wasn't kept on the same side and why the 205/203 cameras weren't given the same functionality of controlling a digital back through databus. I was told that it was "never designed for that". I meekly wish I could have kindly presented him with the 205 TCC brochure where it inferred otherwise. Now it's seven years later, and the V system is contracting and the F series is no longer being made, and we're finally getting a way for the F series cameras to drive a digital back through the databus connection (although at the expense of full operability of the E magazines). I wish that back when the 555 ELD was being planned that the decision would have been to keep databus consistently located and allow the F series bodies to be upgraded to this same functionality.

I wonder a bit about the decision to restrict the H1 to 6x4.5. I wonder if the H1 would have been made a 6x6 camera with special functionality and accessories to make it compelling to 6x4.5 shooters, if both formats couldn't have been well accommodated. Until the 30+ megapixel backs started shipping I think the EOS-1DS Mark II was a decidely better investment, and it still may be, but if an H1 was based on 6x6 and hence allowed for ergonomic operation while shooting vertical formats this would add a strong advantage to choosing it. (It could allow for this even with a rectangular imaging sensor since it would allow for sensor magazines with rotatable sensors.) ___ The segment of the still photography market that requires camera movements could be greatly aided by a 6x6 chip. Indeed, I think the V system approach has been the right thing, and I think that digital image capture and digital communication between modular parts--in replacement of mechanical linkages--can enhance the approach. Are we satisfied with 16 megapixel images such as found in the EOS 1DS Mark II? How much denser will imaging chips become? I think that we may reach a point when the traditional advantages of the V system will once again be with us, and I hope that Hasselblad will respond:

Would not a Flex Body/Arc Body camera that supported a 6x6 chip magazine be a fabulous tool for field usage; and maybe a matching studio version with even greater flexibility of movements? I think that the Arc Body should have allowed the use of CF lenses, and F lenses with a supplemental shutter even if it only functioned at slower speeds: all of this could now be more easily made possible by using digital linkages and electronic motors in individual components.

I'll happily let go of film transport capabilities in this "new camera", but the magazine should be removable so that it can be shared with other camera bodies, which could include a compact rangefinder like body. I'll also happily let go of some of the traditional materials and the style of the V series. But please give us a square format solution: a square format solution that works with wide angle lenses and takes full advantage of the size of the camera. ___ If I want to take a still image and pan across it in HD video, 1080p specifically, I need a lot of pixels, and 50 megapixel images would be wonderful to work with. If I want to do the same with 4520x2540 pixel digital cinema images then I will likely need even more than 50 megapixels. And large format film shooters are accustomed to the quality that 50+ megapixels would provide.

If 50 megapixels is much more than someone's needs, at least if it's full frame then wide angle images can be captured and the file can be written down to a smaller size. The square format is particularly compelling when shooting weddings and other such events. And without the need for mechanical linkages maybe a Hasselblad could produce 3 frames a second.

Most prints that I've made, that weren't intended for an album, measured 20x20 inches, and I've been eager to make 30x30 inch and larger prints, and I would look forward to having the extra pixels available, just as I have been grateful for the extra film surface area in medium format in the past. Indeed, when working with single focal length lenses I can't always crop full frame as I might with a zoom, but with extra film surface area or with extra pixels, I can crop later. And hence, while a 16 megapixel back might make a fine 20x20, if I'm starting with 50 megapixels then my options to select just the right 16 megapixels to print are greatly expanded. ___ digital cinema is Red Square still image capture is the future too I wish the best success to Hasselblad, and each of you! :)
 
I think that a 6x6 camera with the capabilities of the H1 would be invigorating. I think that a more manual camera like the V series with the capabilities of a full frame digital imaging sensor would be invigorating. It's quietly disappointing that market dynamics have brought neither.

When the 205 TCC was introduced one of the new features was the databus connection. The ad copy noted that since it was a digital connection that the camera was ready for future developments. It's been disappointing that no future developments have tied into the databus connection as implemented on the F series cameras, until now--with the F series bodies having been dropped from production. Indeed, when the 555 ELD was introduced a databus connector was placed on the opposite side. I asked a Hasselblad representative why it wasn't kept on the same side and why the 205/203 cameras weren't given the same functionality of controlling a digital back through databus. I was told that it was "never designed for that". I meekly wish I could have kindly presented him with the 205 TCC brochure where it inferred otherwise. Now it's seven years later, and the V system is contracting and the F series is no longer being made, and we're finally getting a way for the F series cameras to drive a digital back through the databus connection (although at the expense of full operability of the E magazines). I wish that back when the 555 ELD was being planned that the decision would have been to keep databus consistently located and allow the F series bodies to be upgraded to this same functionality.

I wonder a bit about the decision to restrict the H1 to 6x4.5. I wonder if the H1 would have been made a 6x6 camera with special functionality and accessories to make it compelling to 6x4.5 shooters, if both formats couldn't have been well accommodated. Until the 30+ megapixel backs started shipping I think the EOS-1DS Mark II was a decidely better investment, and it still may be, but if an H1 was based on 6x6 and hence allowed for ergonomic operation while shooting vertical formats this would add a strong advantage to choosing it. (It could allow for this even with a rectangular imaging sensor since it would allow for sensor magazines with rotatable sensors.)

___ The segment of the still photography market that requires camera movements could be greatly aided by a 6x6 chip. Indeed, I think the V system approach has been the right thing, and I think that digital image capture and digital communication between modular parts--in replacement of mechanical linkages--can enhance the approach. Are we satisfied with 16 megapixel images such as found in the EOS 1DS Mark II? How much denser will imaging chips become? I think that we may reach a point when the traditional advantages of the V system will once again be with us, and I hope that Hasselblad will respond:

Would not a Flex Body/Arc Body camera that supported a 6x6 chip magazine be a fabulous tool for field usage; and maybe a matching studio version with even greater flexibility of movements? I think that the Arc Body should have allowed the use of CF lenses, and F lenses with a supplemental shutter even if it only functioned at slower speeds: all of this could now be more easily made possible by using digital linkages and electronic motors in individual components.

I'll happily let go of film transport capabilities in this "new camera", but the magazine should be removable so that it can be shared with other camera bodies, which could include a compact rangefinder like body. I'll also happily let go of some of the traditional materials and the style of the V series. But please give us a square format solution: a square format solution that works with wide angle lenses and takes full advantage of the size of the camera.

___ If I want to take a still image and pan across it in HD video, 1080p specifically, I need a lot of pixels, and 50 megapixel images would be wonderful to work with. If I want to do the same with 4520x2540 pixel digital cinema images then I will likely need even more than 50 megapixels. And large format film shooters are accustomed to the quality that 50+ megapixels would provide.

If 50 megapixels is much more than someone's needs, at least if it's full frame then wide angle images can be captured and the file can be written down to a smaller size. The square format is particularly compelling when shooting weddings and other such events. And without the need for mechanical linkages maybe a Hasselblad could produce 3 frames a second.

Most prints that I've made, that weren't intended for an album, measured 20x20 inches, and I've been eager to make 30x30 inch and larger prints, and I would look forward to having the extra pixels available, just as I have been grateful for the extra film surface area in medium format in the past. Indeed, when working with single focal length lenses I can't always crop full frame as I might with a zoom, but with extra film surface area or with extra pixels, I can crop later. And hence, while a 16 megapixel back might make a fine 20x20, if I'm starting with 50 megapixels then my options to select just the right 16 megapixels to print are greatly expanded.

___ digital cinema is Red, Square still image capture is the future too, I wish the best success, to Hasselblad, and each of you! :)
 
The 16 meg square sensors are actually quite good. While the meg count may be the same as the current 35mm DSLR Canon 1DsMKII, the results are superior due to the larger size of the sensor AND the fact that the Imacon backs are true 16 bit sensors where the Canon is 12 bit. I have both, and take my word for it, image quality shows up when trying to shoot objects like Jewelry in the studio. That translates across the board.

The penalty is that you are dealing with a crop factor of 1.5X. The penalty is more toward the wide angle end since a 40mm provides the field of view of a 60mm while retaining the depth of field of a 40. The bonus comes at the longer end starting with an 80/2.8 that becomes a 120/2.8 BUT retains the DOF of the 80. This crop factor turns the 120 Makro into a 180mm Makro which is quite useful actually. The excellent 180/4 would produce the FOV of a 270mm. All the closest minimum focusing distances of each Zeiss lens is maintained.

All those who love their Hasselblads I urge you to be open to the use of a digital back to further the functionality of the system.
Unlike a high end DSLR, it easily allows choice of film or digital at a moment's notice.

Even a tethered back is fun when shooting in more controlled situations where you can shoot to a computer. The V96C doesn't require being tethered to a computer, but does require shooting to an Imacon ImageBank slung over your shoulder or hooked to your belt. Actually a most favorable thing since you can confidently shoot over 1000 images to it. These options are becoming more affordable as Pros move to the higher meg 645 backs. $5,000. may sound quite expensive until you price out even a used Canon 1DsMKII which is the same price or more.

Here's a digital shot I did Sunday to test the new firmware/software upgrade in the H2D/Imacon 22 meg 645 back. It is supposed to eliminate any color fringing which sometimes shows up when shooting back-lit objects where the edges flush up against brighter backgrounds. In my tests with the HC 50/3.5 it worked flawlessly. ISO 200. 1/800th shutter, 50mm @ 3.5

24408.jpg
 
Talking about square format. Don't you guys know that Phase One P20 is square format, 4080 x 4080? Although it is only 16MP, I still think the image will blow Canon EOS-1DS Mark II away, so is the high price tag attached to the P20 digital back. Phase One P20 is also compatible with Mamiya 645AFD, Contax 645, Hasselblad V system, and Hasselblad H1 system.

So, square format is already here. Do we just want more MegaPixels?
 
I don't think it's as much about MegaPixels Paul, but instead a dream of a full frame 6X6 without any crop factor ... which would most likely be around 50 meg to achieve levels similar to current 645 sized sensors.
 
My comments took into account that this sensor pixel count is available, and has been available for many years from multiple vendors.

"Do we just want more pixels?" No, I also want full frame capabilities and camera body features that take advantage of digital image capture workflow possibilities. I want to capture wide angle images, and I want shift capabilities with wide angle lenses, and I want significantly greater workflow automation than the 503 CWD or 555 ELD provide, and I don't want this to be any larger and heavier than is necessary.

I don't believe that the image quality of the 4080x4080 sensors blow away the image quality of the EOS-1DS Mark II, although there are areas where it might be a little better. However, these comparisons are much narrower than the framework I am working in: I'm speaking of the entirety of the image capturing process: autofocus and autofocus points in the viewfinder, number of frames per second, remote control, long and fast telephoto lenses, degree of weatherproofing, tilt and shift, etc. There are constraints of physics as we increase the size of the image circle, and there are constraints associated with the size of production runs, and there are constraints associated with capital expenditures: may we be no more constrained than is necessary, and may we make the best use of what we have before us!
 
Why are most digital backs 4:3 ratio, rather than the 1:1 ratio? According to Kevin Raber of Phase One:
'This is mainly a technical reason. The sensors are made out of a wafer, which is a circle. To get most sensors out of this circle, the 4:3 ratio is much more efficient. It is possible to make square sensors, but it makes the sensor very expensive. In my opinion, eventually, the square size will disappear.'

Can we take his word for it? Your guess is as good as mine.
 
> My geometry is very rusty, but some envelope scratching I did seems > to say that a square circumscribed within a given circle will > always have MORE area (ie more sensors) than a 4:3 rectangle. > However, one must remember that you must also build in support > circuits to read the sensor contents onto the same wafer, and that > may be the problem. To have room for the support circuits, the > original wafer may have to be "larger", and that could explain the > increase in cost.
 
'..a square circumscribed within a given circle will always have MORE area than a 4:3 rectangle."

That's right, since a square sensor takes more area, you will have more wasted area on the edge of the wafer, therefore getting less number of chips(sensors) harvested per wafer. Manufacturers want to harvest as much number of chips as possible out of one wafer, not less.
 
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