najobskalf
Member
Marc, I have to agree with your comments. Buggy digital backs at these prices are simply crap. The only situation in which they make sense is where their cost is tax-deductible.
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MASK FOR CFV CROP FACTOR
- Thread starter jotloob
- Start date
That can easily happen Wilko, and I've seen it happen, due to user error. Speculation is all we can do because we weren't there to see what Jurgen did or didn't do wrong, if anything.
Here are some IFs based on having done some myself, and having read others on those MF digital blogs. Sorry for the length in advance, but some may be interested in the specifics.
IF you do not select the correct camera in the CFVs menu, it will not work correctly.
Sometimes, IF the battery wasn't conditioned or initially charged fully, it could lead to total shut down due to lack of adequate power. It's a fail-safe designed to keep from writing truncated files yet showing all is well with jpgs on the LCD. I had a battery problem with my H2D/39 which turned out to need the "fuel gauge" reset, even when it was fully charged the back read it as being empty and shut down, or wrote a few garbled files and then shut down. Reset the gauge and I was back in business with that battery.
IF the back is even momentarily subjected to a loss of power when loading the firmware you have a problem (need a battery back-up system on the computer).
IF the USB or Firewire cord is even slightly damaged, you have a problem.
IF you have a defective reader (I did) you're screwed. If the CF card becomes corrupt the back will simply shut down and not recognize any command. I had a CF card that would only write half of it's capacity, which I immediately blamed the back for ... turned out it was a tiny limiter switch on the CF card set to 2 gig instead of 4 which until then I had never heard of.
If you trash the card contents but do not empty the trash WHILE the card is still mounted on the desktop, the files are still there when you put it back in the CFV. If those files were seen by Flexcolor and worked on in any way before trashing it could cause the camera to shut down due to unrecognized file format.
IF the wrong button is pressed or wrong combination of buttons are pressed at the wrong time you can cause a world of hurt. Flicking through the buttons without knowing what you are doing is not a good thing... something I learned the hard way.
Good IFs:
IF you aren't sure about what buttons you may have pressed, you can go to settings and scroll to "set Camera Defaults" that usually clears any CFV menu mistake.
IF you still have a problem, hook the camera up to the computer using the Firewire ... WITHOUT a CF card in it. THEN open Flexcolor, make sure it is connected (the LCD will tell you it is), and go to camera settings. I've seen people set the delay on the camera incorrectly here or have the wrong camera selected, and then the back doesn't operate correctly.
IF the camera connects, you should be able to fire off a shot and have it appear in the thumb window and the larger preview window. If that works, then you know the back is functioning.
Like mentioned by a previous poster here, these are basically computers. If there is an issue in the field, I immediately shut down the camera, replace the CF card, remove the battery, and remove the back to break the connection. After a few seconds you can reconnect everything. I have had this happen once with the CFV, and that procedure corrected it. But it's not just pertinent to the CFV, all the backs I've used needed rebooting at least once ... but so has my bullet-proof Canon 1DsMKII. The difference between the Canon and the CFV is that if the Canon goes down, I can't slap a film back on it and finish the job : -)
That's just some of the learning curve because you are not only shooting the image it is being processed right after shooting it. So, like processing in a darkroom, proper sequence and knowledgeable process is important ... like IF you put a print in the stop bath instead of the developer tray, you're screwed, or put the paper in the easel upside down, or don't keep an eye on tank temp, or agitate incorrectly, or wash with water that's to hot, or absently mindedly turn on the overheads instead of the safe light. More remedial to be sure, but these aren't remedial pieces of gear either ... they are primarily designed for Professional photographers ... who by the way often employ a tech person to run the back and software which clients (like me) have to pay for. If we buy one, WE have to learn that craft ourselves. I'm a dangerous guy when Art Directing on a photo set because I know a problem when I see one and they can't blow smoke up my bum about it : -)
Finally, all this may have absolutely nothing to do with Jurgen's CFV, and it may well be a problem child. If it's already gone back to Hasselblad none of the above can help.
Here are some IFs based on having done some myself, and having read others on those MF digital blogs. Sorry for the length in advance, but some may be interested in the specifics.
IF you do not select the correct camera in the CFVs menu, it will not work correctly.
Sometimes, IF the battery wasn't conditioned or initially charged fully, it could lead to total shut down due to lack of adequate power. It's a fail-safe designed to keep from writing truncated files yet showing all is well with jpgs on the LCD. I had a battery problem with my H2D/39 which turned out to need the "fuel gauge" reset, even when it was fully charged the back read it as being empty and shut down, or wrote a few garbled files and then shut down. Reset the gauge and I was back in business with that battery.
IF the back is even momentarily subjected to a loss of power when loading the firmware you have a problem (need a battery back-up system on the computer).
IF the USB or Firewire cord is even slightly damaged, you have a problem.
IF you have a defective reader (I did) you're screwed. If the CF card becomes corrupt the back will simply shut down and not recognize any command. I had a CF card that would only write half of it's capacity, which I immediately blamed the back for ... turned out it was a tiny limiter switch on the CF card set to 2 gig instead of 4 which until then I had never heard of.
If you trash the card contents but do not empty the trash WHILE the card is still mounted on the desktop, the files are still there when you put it back in the CFV. If those files were seen by Flexcolor and worked on in any way before trashing it could cause the camera to shut down due to unrecognized file format.
IF the wrong button is pressed or wrong combination of buttons are pressed at the wrong time you can cause a world of hurt. Flicking through the buttons without knowing what you are doing is not a good thing... something I learned the hard way.
Good IFs:
IF you aren't sure about what buttons you may have pressed, you can go to settings and scroll to "set Camera Defaults" that usually clears any CFV menu mistake.
IF you still have a problem, hook the camera up to the computer using the Firewire ... WITHOUT a CF card in it. THEN open Flexcolor, make sure it is connected (the LCD will tell you it is), and go to camera settings. I've seen people set the delay on the camera incorrectly here or have the wrong camera selected, and then the back doesn't operate correctly.
IF the camera connects, you should be able to fire off a shot and have it appear in the thumb window and the larger preview window. If that works, then you know the back is functioning.
Like mentioned by a previous poster here, these are basically computers. If there is an issue in the field, I immediately shut down the camera, replace the CF card, remove the battery, and remove the back to break the connection. After a few seconds you can reconnect everything. I have had this happen once with the CFV, and that procedure corrected it. But it's not just pertinent to the CFV, all the backs I've used needed rebooting at least once ... but so has my bullet-proof Canon 1DsMKII. The difference between the Canon and the CFV is that if the Canon goes down, I can't slap a film back on it and finish the job : -)
That's just some of the learning curve because you are not only shooting the image it is being processed right after shooting it. So, like processing in a darkroom, proper sequence and knowledgeable process is important ... like IF you put a print in the stop bath instead of the developer tray, you're screwed, or put the paper in the easel upside down, or don't keep an eye on tank temp, or agitate incorrectly, or wash with water that's to hot, or absently mindedly turn on the overheads instead of the safe light. More remedial to be sure, but these aren't remedial pieces of gear either ... they are primarily designed for Professional photographers ... who by the way often employ a tech person to run the back and software which clients (like me) have to pay for. If we buy one, WE have to learn that craft ourselves. I'm a dangerous guy when Art Directing on a photo set because I know a problem when I see one and they can't blow smoke up my bum about it : -)
Finally, all this may have absolutely nothing to do with Jurgen's CFV, and it may well be a problem child. If it's already gone back to Hasselblad none of the above can help.
Jurgen: Regarding your comment above ...
"And HASSELBLAD and other companies are asked , no ..... forced to do more , to improve the reliability of their products . It is not enough just to get the cash , they must give a "working value" for the money they claim".
I absolutely agree! You are right to expect quality and reliability, and you have done the right thing in getting the whole contraption back to the maker. I am quite confident that you will be treated fairly when it is all said and done. It has been quite inconvenient for you, no doubt, but it has been also very instructive to many of us who are in a 'holding pattern' above 'the digital airfield'.
Cheers,
Colin
(But for goodness sake, don't go to "Utah or Siberia" without a Kangaroo.)
"And HASSELBLAD and other companies are asked , no ..... forced to do more , to improve the reliability of their products . It is not enough just to get the cash , they must give a "working value" for the money they claim".
I absolutely agree! You are right to expect quality and reliability, and you have done the right thing in getting the whole contraption back to the maker. I am quite confident that you will be treated fairly when it is all said and done. It has been quite inconvenient for you, no doubt, but it has been also very instructive to many of us who are in a 'holding pattern' above 'the digital airfield'.
Cheers,
Colin
(But for goodness sake, don't go to "Utah or Siberia" without a Kangaroo.)
Hi Jurgen,
> Austin > > Please compare the price of a 120 film + all developers you need to > process that film , against the price of the cheapest back . The > advertising for backs make you believe , that to own them , it is the > ultimate . True ? ? ? Shurely not .
I'm not sure what your comment was in reply to...but with respect to medium format digital, unless you're a commercial photographer (or some other professional photographer) where the economics of digital make sense...then film is significantly cheaper. And, most people ignore the time involved in dealing with digital image archiving. For some it's easier, and for some it's far more time consuming.
For some people, digital makes perfect sense. And, for others, film makes perfect sense...especially when you can scan it and print it digitally as well.
Regards,
Austin
> Austin > > Please compare the price of a 120 film + all developers you need to > process that film , against the price of the cheapest back . The > advertising for backs make you believe , that to own them , it is the > ultimate . True ? ? ? Shurely not .
I'm not sure what your comment was in reply to...but with respect to medium format digital, unless you're a commercial photographer (or some other professional photographer) where the economics of digital make sense...then film is significantly cheaper. And, most people ignore the time involved in dealing with digital image archiving. For some it's easier, and for some it's far more time consuming.
For some people, digital makes perfect sense. And, for others, film makes perfect sense...especially when you can scan it and print it digitally as well.
Regards,
Austin
wbulte
Active Member
Hi Marc,
I imagine that having someone rush a replacement digiback to you is priceless. But for folks not living in major cities it would probably not fly. I expect that getting a replacement in the best part of the Netherlands would take hours *at best*.
Or I imagine myself standing on the edge of a canyon in red-rock Utah territory.. (this is not theoretical, that happens to be my favorite shooting territory).
At the price levels we are talking about getting a loaner during a planned service event is nothing short of normal to me. I get a loaner car if I bring my Audi to the shop, and prices are not too different from your high-end gear ( shiver ;-)
Hmm.. interesting discussion, this.
Wilko
I imagine that having someone rush a replacement digiback to you is priceless. But for folks not living in major cities it would probably not fly. I expect that getting a replacement in the best part of the Netherlands would take hours *at best*.
Or I imagine myself standing on the edge of a canyon in red-rock Utah territory.. (this is not theoretical, that happens to be my favorite shooting territory).
At the price levels we are talking about getting a loaner during a planned service event is nothing short of normal to me. I get a loaner car if I bring my Audi to the shop, and prices are not too different from your high-end gear ( shiver ;-)
Hmm.. interesting discussion, this.
Wilko
venturamike
New Member
I just have to say this digital stuff being made today is some of the most reliable digital MF equipment I have used. All this talk about buggy equipment takes me back to the old Leaf DCB/Volari/Cantari days with Colorshop. That was some buggy hardware and software. We have it pretty good for the most part these days guys! And at 39mp! I remember pleading with the Leaf rep to give us a 4k chip......please!
I guess I'm dating myself...hell, it's not that long ago!
Michael Terry
I guess I'm dating myself...hell, it's not that long ago!
Michael Terry
Yeah Terry, I remember my first foray into the MF digital back territory with Kodak's very first ProBack that only worked on a 555ELD @ any ISO as long as it was 100 ... which is still in use today by another shooter BTW. But at first the software was incomprehensible to me and crashes were the rule not the exception until they fixed the software.
No one had much experience so you had to track down someone at the "secret" Kodak digital group. And I discovered by accident that the Kodak files were supported by Adobe Camera RAW which neither Kodak nor Adobe bothered to mention anywhere.
All this stuff is just like any 3rd party program, the computer operating platform leads them and it takes time to catch up and stabilize it all, then on to the next upgrade. The industry is young.
Leaf has come a looooong way huh? Their most recent Aptus and latest software is nothing short of miraculous compared to just a short time ago. Hasselblads most recent software update also improved the ISO 400 files so much I could hardly believe it.
Unless there is a major technological breakthrough, I think the MF meg race will slow down now and the general functionality will get the attention.
Wilko, I think the best "back-up" for non-professional photographers is still a film back and box of film. Most of us already have that, so it's not any additional expense.
As to cost, I recover 100% of the cost by charging a commercial digital capture fee in place of the client expense for film, processing, and scanning. All commercial printing is digital now, so film has to be scanned at $30. to $70+. a scan. For a catalog job with 100 shots, film expenses can run up to $6,000. or more. Charging a $500. to $700. a day capture fee seems like a bargain in comparison. 50 days of shooting ( once a week) paid for the H2D/39 for ex&le.
No one had much experience so you had to track down someone at the "secret" Kodak digital group. And I discovered by accident that the Kodak files were supported by Adobe Camera RAW which neither Kodak nor Adobe bothered to mention anywhere.
All this stuff is just like any 3rd party program, the computer operating platform leads them and it takes time to catch up and stabilize it all, then on to the next upgrade. The industry is young.
Leaf has come a looooong way huh? Their most recent Aptus and latest software is nothing short of miraculous compared to just a short time ago. Hasselblads most recent software update also improved the ISO 400 files so much I could hardly believe it.
Unless there is a major technological breakthrough, I think the MF meg race will slow down now and the general functionality will get the attention.
Wilko, I think the best "back-up" for non-professional photographers is still a film back and box of film. Most of us already have that, so it's not any additional expense.
As to cost, I recover 100% of the cost by charging a commercial digital capture fee in place of the client expense for film, processing, and scanning. All commercial printing is digital now, so film has to be scanned at $30. to $70+. a scan. For a catalog job with 100 shots, film expenses can run up to $6,000. or more. Charging a $500. to $700. a day capture fee seems like a bargain in comparison. 50 days of shooting ( once a week) paid for the H2D/39 for ex&le.
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Marc
Thanks for your IF list . Yes in deed , there are many things which can go wrong and cause a malfunction .
I am pretty shure , that i did nothing wrong , as i could shoot three testseries and did not encounter any trouble .
Then the problem turned up intermittent and is now solid .
I used three different batteries , all fully loaded for more than 24 hours and three different CF cards . I also used a USB CF card reader and a FIREWIRE card reader .
I am very anxious what the result report from HASSELBLAD will be .
But i would like to come back to 2 points , which are momentarily not clear to me .
First: If the the power of the batteries of my MACBOOK comes down to a low level , i get a warning and there is plenty of time for a controlled shutdown . I could not find anything similar for the CFV back in the documentation (which i have printed out , for easier reference) . If you have a reference for low power warnings , please let me know , where i can find it .
Second : When i "mount" (this is a term in computer language) any of my 3 CF cards , I find 2 folders on them . DCIM and xxxHSSLBLD . If i move these into trash , i can not empty the trash , but i receive a message , that the trash can not be emptied ,
because the folders are in use .
When i then move the "DISK ICON" into trash to "demount" the CF card , the trash is then empty and if i "mount" that card again , i find it empty now .
If i put the CF card back into CFV , the DCIM andxxxHSSLBLD folders are written onto the cards again when formatting . To me that means , formatting works fine . But i dont know what other information should be written onto the card , if any .
The "trash" operation is different to what you describe .
Thanks for your IF list . Yes in deed , there are many things which can go wrong and cause a malfunction .
I am pretty shure , that i did nothing wrong , as i could shoot three testseries and did not encounter any trouble .
Then the problem turned up intermittent and is now solid .
I used three different batteries , all fully loaded for more than 24 hours and three different CF cards . I also used a USB CF card reader and a FIREWIRE card reader .
I am very anxious what the result report from HASSELBLAD will be .
But i would like to come back to 2 points , which are momentarily not clear to me .
First: If the the power of the batteries of my MACBOOK comes down to a low level , i get a warning and there is plenty of time for a controlled shutdown . I could not find anything similar for the CFV back in the documentation (which i have printed out , for easier reference) . If you have a reference for low power warnings , please let me know , where i can find it .
Second : When i "mount" (this is a term in computer language) any of my 3 CF cards , I find 2 folders on them . DCIM and xxxHSSLBLD . If i move these into trash , i can not empty the trash , but i receive a message , that the trash can not be emptied ,
because the folders are in use .
When i then move the "DISK ICON" into trash to "demount" the CF card , the trash is then empty and if i "mount" that card again , i find it empty now .
If i put the CF card back into CFV , the DCIM andxxxHSSLBLD folders are written onto the cards again when formatting . To me that means , formatting works fine . But i dont know what other information should be written onto the card , if any .
The "trash" operation is different to what you describe .
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Q.G.
When a device works fine , I don't think much about possible malfunctions . I am just using the device and am happy with it .
As soon as the CFV back failed intermittent and the problem seemed to show up different , that was the field for speculations .
Now , as the problem is solid , its HASSELBLAD's turn , to tell me , if and what i might have done wrong or if its a hardware or software bug or even both . And its their buisness to fix it . I will not speculate any more , i just sit here , in patience again , and wait for my CFV to come back and try to learn more about digital backs in the meantime . A big challenge in deed , not as easy as i thought .
I can laugh again , and thats important .
When a device works fine , I don't think much about possible malfunctions . I am just using the device and am happy with it .
As soon as the CFV back failed intermittent and the problem seemed to show up different , that was the field for speculations .
Now , as the problem is solid , its HASSELBLAD's turn , to tell me , if and what i might have done wrong or if its a hardware or software bug or even both . And its their buisness to fix it . I will not speculate any more , i just sit here , in patience again , and wait for my CFV to come back and try to learn more about digital backs in the meantime . A big challenge in deed , not as easy as i thought .
wbulte
Active Member
Hi Marc,
I do not want to enter an arguing match here, just some comments on things that are most definitely fixable in firmware if Imacon wants to spend the effort.
- That can easily happen Wilko, and I've seen it happen, due to user - error. Speculation is all we can do because we weren't there to see - what Jurgen did or didn't do wrong, if anything.
- Here are some IFs based on having done some myself, and having read - others on those MF digital blogs. Sorry for the length in advance, but - some may be interested in the specifics.
- IF the back is even momentarily subjected to a loss of power when - loading the firmware you have a problem (need a battery back-up system - on the computer).
Yes, absolutely. If the flash memory containing the firmware is being written you are toast. This we discussed earlier in the forum if I am not mistaken. This problem, however, shows marginal software design. There are multiple ways to avoid it, and they are being used in professional IT equipment. One solution is to split the flash ROM in two segments, one segment holding the currently running firmware, the other segment being used to download new firmware to. Once that download is completed, verified etc, a virtual switch is flipped allowing the newly loaded firmware be activated on the next powerup. Making it perfect would imply a user selectable option to forcibly select the 'old' firmware.
This also shows that simply downloading firmware without asking the user is a certifiably bad idea. Only allowing it with mains power connected to the back, or only if the battery is at least >85% charged or somesuch would also help. Using multiple firmware flash ROM segments is better however.
- IF you have a defective reader (I did) you're screwed. If the CF card - becomes corrupt the back will simply shut down and not recognize any
And that is sloppy firmware engineering. Filesystem corruption is what you are referring to. This can (and should be) detected and an appropriate message should be displayed like "CF media format corrupted" or somesuch. Simply shutting down is not appropriate.
- command. I had a CF card that would only write half of it's capacity, - which I immediately blamed the back for ... turned out it was a tiny - limiter switch on the CF card set to 2 gig instead of 4 which until - then I had never heard of.
I guess (!) that formatting using the wrong FAT filesystem type would have a similar effect.
- If you trash the card contents but do not empty the trash WHILE the - card is still mounted on the desktop, the files are still there when - you put it back in the CFV. If those files were seen by Flexcolor and - worked on in any way before trashing it could cause the camera to shut - down due to unrecognized file format.
I guess this is understandable if you know how this Thrash-can thing works under the surface. Basically only the reference (the little icon) is no longer shown on the screen, the files however are still there unaltered. They just took residence in the Thrash-can. This is the kind of cockpit mistake one typically only makes once, so it is mostly harmless. But annoying of course.
- IF the wrong button is pressed or wrong combination of buttons are - pressed at the wrong time you can cause a world of hurt. Flicking
Will the back lock up? Or will you just get the wrong settings? Lockup would signify a bug, wrong settings, well... you get what you asked for then.
- IF you aren't sure about what buttons you may have pressed, you can go - to settings and scroll to "set Camera Defaults" that usually clears - any CFV menu mistake.
Excellent option to have!
- Like mentioned by a previous poster here, these are basically - computers. If there is an issue in the field, I immediately shut down
Indeed, that is absolutely the right way to look at them. But I would make one small correction here "these are basically EMBEDDED computers". Embedded means task-specific computers, which are expected to always run, or (worst case) fail gracefully. The ignition-fuel injection system in your car is an ex&le, a heart pacemaker another one. Neither would be appreciated if they needed their batteries pulled to recover sometime during operation..
- the camera, replace the CF card, remove the battery, and remove the - back to break the connection. After a few seconds you can reconnect - everything. I have had this happen once with the CFV, and that - procedure corrected it. But it's not just pertinent to the CFV, all
In computer terminology we call that a "hard reboot".
- bullet-proof Canon 1DsMKII. The difference between the Canon and the - CFV is that if the Canon goes down, I can't slap a film back on it and - finish the job : -)
Hair raising, no doubt
- primarily designed for Professional photographers ... who by the way - often employ a tech person to run the back and software which clients
As long as there is a need to employ a seperate person/geek for care and feeding of your digibacks we are not talking mature technology yet. And the question is, given the limited production runs of these products, whether all the bugs will ever be fixed (for some definition of 'all' of course; bugs you never encounter are considered non-issues in the IT industry).
- (like me) have to pay for. If we buy one, WE have to learn that craft - ourselves. I'm a dangerous guy when Art Directing on a photo set - because I know a problem when I see one and they can't blow smoke up - my bum about it : -)
Heheh ;-)
Wilko
I do not want to enter an arguing match here, just some comments on things that are most definitely fixable in firmware if Imacon wants to spend the effort.
- That can easily happen Wilko, and I've seen it happen, due to user - error. Speculation is all we can do because we weren't there to see - what Jurgen did or didn't do wrong, if anything.
- Here are some IFs based on having done some myself, and having read - others on those MF digital blogs. Sorry for the length in advance, but - some may be interested in the specifics.
- IF the back is even momentarily subjected to a loss of power when - loading the firmware you have a problem (need a battery back-up system - on the computer).
Yes, absolutely. If the flash memory containing the firmware is being written you are toast. This we discussed earlier in the forum if I am not mistaken. This problem, however, shows marginal software design. There are multiple ways to avoid it, and they are being used in professional IT equipment. One solution is to split the flash ROM in two segments, one segment holding the currently running firmware, the other segment being used to download new firmware to. Once that download is completed, verified etc, a virtual switch is flipped allowing the newly loaded firmware be activated on the next powerup. Making it perfect would imply a user selectable option to forcibly select the 'old' firmware.
This also shows that simply downloading firmware without asking the user is a certifiably bad idea. Only allowing it with mains power connected to the back, or only if the battery is at least >85% charged or somesuch would also help. Using multiple firmware flash ROM segments is better however.
- IF you have a defective reader (I did) you're screwed. If the CF card - becomes corrupt the back will simply shut down and not recognize any
And that is sloppy firmware engineering. Filesystem corruption is what you are referring to. This can (and should be) detected and an appropriate message should be displayed like "CF media format corrupted" or somesuch. Simply shutting down is not appropriate.
- command. I had a CF card that would only write half of it's capacity, - which I immediately blamed the back for ... turned out it was a tiny - limiter switch on the CF card set to 2 gig instead of 4 which until - then I had never heard of.
I guess (!) that formatting using the wrong FAT filesystem type would have a similar effect.
- If you trash the card contents but do not empty the trash WHILE the - card is still mounted on the desktop, the files are still there when - you put it back in the CFV. If those files were seen by Flexcolor and - worked on in any way before trashing it could cause the camera to shut - down due to unrecognized file format.
I guess this is understandable if you know how this Thrash-can thing works under the surface. Basically only the reference (the little icon) is no longer shown on the screen, the files however are still there unaltered. They just took residence in the Thrash-can. This is the kind of cockpit mistake one typically only makes once, so it is mostly harmless. But annoying of course.
- IF the wrong button is pressed or wrong combination of buttons are - pressed at the wrong time you can cause a world of hurt. Flicking
Will the back lock up? Or will you just get the wrong settings? Lockup would signify a bug, wrong settings, well... you get what you asked for then.
- IF you aren't sure about what buttons you may have pressed, you can go - to settings and scroll to "set Camera Defaults" that usually clears - any CFV menu mistake.
Excellent option to have!
- Like mentioned by a previous poster here, these are basically - computers. If there is an issue in the field, I immediately shut down
Indeed, that is absolutely the right way to look at them. But I would make one small correction here "these are basically EMBEDDED computers". Embedded means task-specific computers, which are expected to always run, or (worst case) fail gracefully. The ignition-fuel injection system in your car is an ex&le, a heart pacemaker another one. Neither would be appreciated if they needed their batteries pulled to recover sometime during operation..
- the camera, replace the CF card, remove the battery, and remove the - back to break the connection. After a few seconds you can reconnect - everything. I have had this happen once with the CFV, and that - procedure corrected it. But it's not just pertinent to the CFV, all
In computer terminology we call that a "hard reboot".
- bullet-proof Canon 1DsMKII. The difference between the Canon and the - CFV is that if the Canon goes down, I can't slap a film back on it and - finish the job : -)
Hair raising, no doubt
- primarily designed for Professional photographers ... who by the way - often employ a tech person to run the back and software which clients
As long as there is a need to employ a seperate person/geek for care and feeding of your digibacks we are not talking mature technology yet. And the question is, given the limited production runs of these products, whether all the bugs will ever be fixed (for some definition of 'all' of course; bugs you never encounter are considered non-issues in the IT industry).
- (like me) have to pay for. If we buy one, WE have to learn that craft - ourselves. I'm a dangerous guy when Art Directing on a photo set - because I know a problem when I see one and they can't blow smoke up - my bum about it : -)
Heheh ;-)
Wilko
I never implied I was writing the CFV users manual here. Just a few tips that everyone is free to use or discard ... constant bickering over whether this is right or that is right should be directed to the MF back makers ... not me. I don't make a dime selling this stuff.
And you left out one thing Wilko, no one held a gun to anyone's head to buy this gear. It's a very young industry and the stuff already cost an arm and a leg.
If things like the firmware upload safety technology adds to this cost I don't want it. It's a simple enough thing to learn to do it the correct way. Power is drawn from the main computer by the way, you just have to take care not to pull the firewire while it's downloading. The "Read Me" portion of the software warns you if new firmware will be loaded ... BUT you have to read it, not just move forward willy-nilly.
Many Pro Photographers have always employed a more tech oriented person for the care and feeding of their gear as well as even metering and focusing. Digital is no different, just newer, more complex, and constantly changing as the technology advances which requires a lot of time better spent on their business. Photographers aren't IT guys.
Fooling with the buttons when you don't know what you are doing has nothing to do with a bug. Randomly pushing buttons and twisting dials on a DVD player will muck thing up also. There are a number of features available on this back for special applications. Set one of those inadvertently and it won't work for regular shots. I didn't say the back would lock up.
Usually if a card can't be formatted it'll say so. If you have made multiple errors it may not.
Lastly, and this is not meant as an insult to anyone here, but in my experience the "troubled" backs coincidentally seem to usually be in the hands of the inexperienced. I know, I was one of them not all that long ago. I cannot tell you how much trouble and all the grousing I did over the Kodak ProBack 645C. Once I learned that relatively simple back, and stopped making user errors, it performed flawlessly for 3 years straight.
And you left out one thing Wilko, no one held a gun to anyone's head to buy this gear. It's a very young industry and the stuff already cost an arm and a leg.
If things like the firmware upload safety technology adds to this cost I don't want it. It's a simple enough thing to learn to do it the correct way. Power is drawn from the main computer by the way, you just have to take care not to pull the firewire while it's downloading. The "Read Me" portion of the software warns you if new firmware will be loaded ... BUT you have to read it, not just move forward willy-nilly.
Many Pro Photographers have always employed a more tech oriented person for the care and feeding of their gear as well as even metering and focusing. Digital is no different, just newer, more complex, and constantly changing as the technology advances which requires a lot of time better spent on their business. Photographers aren't IT guys.
Fooling with the buttons when you don't know what you are doing has nothing to do with a bug. Randomly pushing buttons and twisting dials on a DVD player will muck thing up also. There are a number of features available on this back for special applications. Set one of those inadvertently and it won't work for regular shots. I didn't say the back would lock up.
Usually if a card can't be formatted it'll say so. If you have made multiple errors it may not.
Lastly, and this is not meant as an insult to anyone here, but in my experience the "troubled" backs coincidentally seem to usually be in the hands of the inexperienced. I know, I was one of them not all that long ago. I cannot tell you how much trouble and all the grousing I did over the Kodak ProBack 645C. Once I learned that relatively simple back, and stopped making user errors, it performed flawlessly for 3 years straight.
photo_franc
Member
Hi Marc,
I'd just like to say 2 things, First I have learned a lot from this form, mainly your posts and secondly A perfect product is impossible to make and still be curent. By the time it got to market it would be so out of date and very few people could afford it. Companies now have to find a fine balance between product release and refining development. if we needed to wait for it to be perfect we'd still be waiting for a 2 megapixel SLR. We demand newer faster bigger and we want it now. Gee we don't even take the time to read the manual, it's plug n play and damit if it isn't that easy it must be buggy or defective.
Just my opinion
Franc
I'd just like to say 2 things, First I have learned a lot from this form, mainly your posts and secondly A perfect product is impossible to make and still be curent. By the time it got to market it would be so out of date and very few people could afford it. Companies now have to find a fine balance between product release and refining development. if we needed to wait for it to be perfect we'd still be waiting for a 2 megapixel SLR. We demand newer faster bigger and we want it now. Gee we don't even take the time to read the manual, it's plug n play and damit if it isn't that easy it must be buggy or defective.
Just my opinion
Franc
That's an opinion I share Franc.
Were it not for the rush to market with more advanced MF digital solutions this category of camera could very well have ceased to exist altogether, let alone be in a fight for it's life. As it is, one marque after another has gone extinct.
When virtually all communication print and collateral materials went to digital printing, film basically died as a commercial medium ... and the shift of the mainstay wedding and event work to digital nailed the coffin shut.
Before Imacon, Leaf and others busted a financial gut to push the boundaries of larger sensor use, Canon was seriously threatening MF photography. I cannot tell you how many Professional shooters went to 2 systems ... Canon 1Ds/1DsMKII or the Nikon equivalent and a view camera with a tethered digital "studio" back to achieve T/S ability. A $8,000. 35mm digital body folks !!!! ... and Canon couldn't make enough of them.
Think of it, if the MF back makers hadn't pushed forward rapidly, flaws and all, you could buy a $800 Prosumer DSLR today that would perform as well or better than the early MF backs.
As it is, we're down to two MF sensor suppliers: Kodak and Dalsa. Canon still looms large on the horizon ... they are late with the "next step" and it could very well signal that step will be a whopper.
Oh the brighter side, the rapid deployment of large sensor digital capture seems to be revitalizing the MF business what with the latest development of 2 new systems that promise to further bring back the superiority of MF photography.
In the meantime, we die-in-the-wool MF film users can still enjoy our favorite cameras and at least most of our beloved films. I didn't drop a king's ransom into a Imacon scanner for the commercial value it brings to the party ... which is exactly zero return on investment. I was for the love of it.
Frankly, I for one am grateful that Hasselblad even bothered producing the CFV. I personally consider it a nod to the past, and reward for having been a loyal follower of Victor Hasselblad's fine cameras.
Were it not for the rush to market with more advanced MF digital solutions this category of camera could very well have ceased to exist altogether, let alone be in a fight for it's life. As it is, one marque after another has gone extinct.
When virtually all communication print and collateral materials went to digital printing, film basically died as a commercial medium ... and the shift of the mainstay wedding and event work to digital nailed the coffin shut.
Before Imacon, Leaf and others busted a financial gut to push the boundaries of larger sensor use, Canon was seriously threatening MF photography. I cannot tell you how many Professional shooters went to 2 systems ... Canon 1Ds/1DsMKII or the Nikon equivalent and a view camera with a tethered digital "studio" back to achieve T/S ability. A $8,000. 35mm digital body folks !!!! ... and Canon couldn't make enough of them.
Think of it, if the MF back makers hadn't pushed forward rapidly, flaws and all, you could buy a $800 Prosumer DSLR today that would perform as well or better than the early MF backs.
As it is, we're down to two MF sensor suppliers: Kodak and Dalsa. Canon still looms large on the horizon ... they are late with the "next step" and it could very well signal that step will be a whopper.
Oh the brighter side, the rapid deployment of large sensor digital capture seems to be revitalizing the MF business what with the latest development of 2 new systems that promise to further bring back the superiority of MF photography.
In the meantime, we die-in-the-wool MF film users can still enjoy our favorite cameras and at least most of our beloved films. I didn't drop a king's ransom into a Imacon scanner for the commercial value it brings to the party ... which is exactly zero return on investment. I was for the love of it.
Frankly, I for one am grateful that Hasselblad even bothered producing the CFV. I personally consider it a nod to the past, and reward for having been a loyal follower of Victor Hasselblad's fine cameras.
To 'buggy whip' the poor horse a little more:
Last week I was in Sydney for a few days and dropped of some film to a pro processor. They couldn't do it within their normal time as they were 'insanely busy' processing E6 film.
OK, a couple of processing houses in the city have closed, but at least one survivor isn't struggling.
This isn't an anti-digital point, mind, as I wouldn't knock a high end back back if offered!
Nick
Last week I was in Sydney for a few days and dropped of some film to a pro processor. They couldn't do it within their normal time as they were 'insanely busy' processing E6 film.
OK, a couple of processing houses in the city have closed, but at least one survivor isn't struggling.
This isn't an anti-digital point, mind, as I wouldn't knock a high end back back if offered!
Nick
Same here in the Detroit area Nick. The 2 biggest labs shut down all their film lines completely ... but others seem to be doing okay because of it.
Color is less of an issue for me because of the big digital backs, but I will not be a happy c&er if B&W film falters.
I'll buy a skid of Tri-X Pro and a dump truck full of dry chemicals if it even gets close to that (which I doubt will happen in my lifetime).
Color is less of an issue for me because of the big digital backs, but I will not be a happy c&er if B&W film falters.
I'll buy a skid of Tri-X Pro and a dump truck full of dry chemicals if it even gets close to that (which I doubt will happen in my lifetime).