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Early Alert: New CFV-II

fotografz, thanks for this pictures, but the light is too beautiful. I prefer a crop 100% of a pictures 400iso in bad conditions, in low light with high contrast and much shadows. Is the 400iso also usable in this condition?

Have a good holiday,
Sébastien

Ha! As luck would have it, we don't leave until early tomorrow AM, and a nasty thunder storm rolled in ...

The "Dark Knight" goes to work ... Batman would love this light : -)

So dark I had to use a flashlight to set the shutter speed and aperture.

All done at ISO 400 with the Zeiss 40IF ... 1 second exposures at f/4.

Just snaps, because I am NOT taking this geaqr out in the pouring rain for a test. As it is I got fine mist
on the front element.
 

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Hey, I just noticed something while processing these.

I had never done 1 second exposures using Phocus ,,, and it seemed there was some aggressive noise control being applied ... which I thought was the camera ... but it appears to be Phocus doing it. A smearing effect, especially in the OOF areas.

So I tried to redo it in Flexcolor ... but since I had already opened these with Phocus I couldn't revert to Flexcolor.

So I re-opened Phocus, but this time just converted to DNGs ... if you do that none of the Phocus corrections migrate with the file ... it's a pure DNG.

Well my friends, the smearing disappeared. I will report this to the Hasselblad folks so they can improve Phocus.

Same images as DNG RAW files processed in PSCS3 Bridge:
 

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Marc

Thank you for your very interesting postings . I have trouble catching up with reading , as I have been away and had only very little time to read in the forum .
Yes , I admit the 400 ISO image look more like taken with film , than the 50 ISO do . An interesting experience .

Have a nice holiday . Regards Jürgen
 
Very interesting!!! The effect is not subtle.

Steve

I first have to make sure there isn't something I am doing wrong in Phocus Steve. I didn't change any settings from my normal use of the Phocus software, but maybe there is something that needs to be adjusted.

I'll find out by e-mailng a link for this thread to my dealer... who will most likely send it to the proper folks at Hasselblad.

-Marc
 
Sebastien,

Packing for Holiday, not much time ... just enough for a couple of quick snaps in the yard ...

ISO 50 verses ISO 400 of the same shots. Hard to tell apart. I actually like the 400 better as it has a bit more film quality to it when printed.

I'd say ISO 400 is more than just "usable." In fact I'm hoping ISO 800 is almost as good when it gets implemented in a later version of Phocus.

Marc

Thank you for the samples.

I found it interesting that if you look at the yard shot with the chair the ISO 400 the trees in the background are blocky, mushy, and basically "fake" looking trees. It's a little disappointing to see this.
 
Hey, I just noticed something while processing these.

I had never done 1 second exposures using Phocus ,,, and it seemed there was some aggressive noise control being applied ... which I thought was the camera ... but it appears to be Phocus doing it. A smearing effect, especially in the OOF areas.

:

Much, much better. Thanks for fixing that. I was thinking the CFV-II wasn't such a great back afterall, but after seeing your "fixed" photos I'm really relieved.
 
I often find that there a some vertical lines, especially in the dark areas, when shooting iso 400?

I'll try to find and example. My 400 shots are not really usable.
 
Much, much better. Thanks for fixing that. I was thinking the CFV-II wasn't such a great back afterall, but after seeing your "fixed" photos I'm really relieved.

Yes Nathan, it was a bit disturbing until I redid the same files with different software. I have alerted my dealer who is going to follow up with Hasselblad to get more information on this for us.

The whole USA is on Holiday right now so it won't be until late next week before more information is available.
 
I often find that there a some vertical lines, especially in the dark areas, when shooting iso 400?

I'll try to find and example. My 400 shots are not really usable.

Yes, please post some examples.

As with any digital camera, accurate exposure critical, but with up to 12 stops of dynamic range you should be able to hold highlight detail without blocking up shadows and causing the need to lift the image and show noise/streaks.

It may be necessary for you to send us a RAW file via an ftp site to process and evaluate. Once on an ftp site any number of us can access it for up to 10 days to try processing for you ... or determine if there is another issue that needs addressed.

I've had 2 CFV backs and both were very useable at ISO 400.
 
Well yet again I see compelling evidence that the CFV sets new film like standards in digital imaging! :z04_smileys70:

Marc's images highlight 2 things: how superb the CFV images are and how important the processing software is (and. obviously, the user's skills in its use) - Phocus versus Flexcolor.

Marc, a VIP question - did I understand your comment about CFV's potential 800 ISO correctly - that a firm/soft-ware update might deliver 800 ISO? Please excuse my ignorance, but is the ISO speed a function of firm/soft-ware?? An 800 ISO capability would really be VIP to me. :z04_yes:

Well, now I have my first digital "camera" to save for!! Well, after I make my transition to Apple first. And to think the CFV will be my first 2 digital cameras - 501CMD and 503CWD!! :) Gee and if I eventually add a 203FE to my kit, that will make it 3 digital cameras!! :)
 
Simon,

I find it quite amazing. I love using the camera and I can't wait t explore the image files. The detail is quite astonishing and I continually smile when I see the results.

I'm using it with a 203FE, but can assure you that a 503 would be as good for most subjects as the histogram reveals all.

This shot was taken in my small studio whilst tethered to my old Mac G4 using Flexcolor. My Intel Pro has Phocus as well, but I took these files across in DNG following the comments above.

Gary

ps - the skin tones are this colour for effect, not meant to be a Skin Hospital reference file. :)
 

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and ... another shot from the session. Straight portrait. At full res this is quite incredible.

Both unsharpened.

I much prefer the space that is available around the subject when shooting square. With the 3/2 format I want to get closer, but run out of space on the narrow dimension.

Gary
 

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Well yet again I see compelling evidence that the CFV sets new film like standards in digital imaging! :z04_smileys70:

Marc's images highlight 2 things: how superb the CFV images are and how important the processing software is (and. obviously, the user's skills in its use) - Phocus versus Flexcolor.

Marc, a VIP question - did I understand your comment about CFV's potential 800 ISO correctly - that a firm/soft-ware update might deliver 800 ISO? Please excuse my ignorance, but is the ISO speed a function of firm/soft-ware?? An 800 ISO capability would really be VIP to me. :z04_yes:

Well, now I have my first digital "camera" to save for!! Well, after I make my transition to Apple first. And to think the CFV will be my first 2 digital cameras - 501CMD and 503CWD!! :) Gee and if I eventually add a 203FE to my kit, that will make it 3 digital cameras!! :)

Simon, the lift to ISO 800 will be accomplished with both firmware alterations in the back iteslf and corresponding improvements with the software.
It will be an easy thing to accomplish when the time comes ... down load the new software version of Phocus, plug the camera back into your computer with the supplied firewire, and follow the firmware upgrade instructions on screen.
 
Thanks Gary. I see exactly what you mean. And I agree with you about square portraits.

Thanks Marc, I'm glad I asked. It strikes me from your 400iso images that 800iso could well be as good as (or even better than) film!
Keith, what I mean is that I have generally found the "look" of digital to be unappealing to my eyes due to one or more of the following attributes: "unnatural; having a plasticity attribute; often muddy; flat and lacking dynamic appeal when the images were taken in ideal conditions; having unappealing noise (film may produce strong grain, but some digital noise can be quite different and ugly)".

This is the main reason I have not gone digital among others such as the cost and other limitiations such as impact on my lens kit's angle of view.....

Yes, in some ideal shooting circumstances the attributes were not so obvious to my eyes.

However, in the case of the CFV from the day Marc first posted his images and enthusiastically reported here words like: "this digital back has me more excited than my ??? (I think he referred to an H series 22MP back)".

So, over here many thousands of miles away, I got the message!! His images even at 72dpi over the web, had the look of any 6x6 film image - I certainly could not distinguish those digital images from film ones.

Then Jurgen and others started posting CFV images with the same results.

In fact I recall I wrote in response to Marc's first images that I noticed that the CFV images did "not have the plasticity often seen in...". Plasticity is the most visible weakness I see in many digital images. I even see it in many H series back produced images.

That CFV sensor produces a very specific "LOOK" that is all good. While we all know what image quality attributes that make or break quality (such as resolution of fine details); just like in the case of lenses, for those of us who care (and obviously many don't) those attributes together with that look bring joy!!

I am simply an observer and one who openly admits the cost of going digital is beyond his budget. But I am keen to get there soon.

I also shoot 35mm rangefinder - Leica M7 and love that nearly as much as I love 6x6. I have a couple of reservations about the M8, but all images I have seen have been very good, if not excellent - a nice and reasonably film-like "look". Yes I think I would buy one if I had the money. BUT, alas 35mm rangefinder is only about 30% of my shooting. Interestingly I see very similar image attributes in the M8 and CFV images. So, then I was not surprised that they are both made by Kodak!!

BUT MY BELOVED 6X6 HASSELBLAD KIT is about 50% or more of my shooting - so it is logically the place for me to invest in digital if there is a viable back. AND MY EYES HAVE BEEN TELLING ME THAT THE CFV IS THE VIABLE BACK. But it is about 40-50% more expensive than an M8. So, I just have to wait and save my pennies.

Because I never shoot 6x6 film wider than 50mm and 60mm would more often suffice, I think I can accept the 50% crop factor of the CFV. BUT, I guess I would end up having to buy a CF 40mm lens (reasonably affordable in the used market these days).

So Keith, I hope my story has not bored you too much. I though if I told the whole story others may have comments worth discussing.
 
Hi Simon

Many thanks for your detailed reply, appreciated.

[COLOR=mediumturquoise said:
Keith, [/color]what I mean is that I have generally found the "look" of digital to be unappealing to my eyes due to one or more of the following attributes: "unnatural; having a plasticity attribute; often muddy...

Firstly, I have to say that I wouldn't make any judgements about anything based on JPEGs displayed on the web.

Having now seen many files from the CFV and P20 plus others from 22MP backs I've come to the conclusion that the processing of the files and the software/workflow are all important. I've seen files from the CFV/P20 that display all the negative attributes that you mention and yet have seen files from those same backs that are really very good.

Secondly, of all the MFD files I've now seen not one of them had a quality anything like film, the two capture methods are completely different and I see this as a positive not a negative. Generally speaking the digital files display a far more accurate representation, are far cleaner and the RAW files are just so flexible. Remember, I'm not comparing scans made on a flatbed or prosumer CCD scanners here but top quality drumscans.

You might wonder given the comments above why I'm still using film. The fact is I'm a square shooter, it's the main reason I use 500 series cameras. Unfortunately the only square sensor back available is the CFV with the inherent wide angle limitations, I need that true 38 or 40mm lens. The CFV files are also far too small for my needs. The 22MP backs *are* 16MP backs when cropped square and therefore have no advantage for me. I'm currently looking at other solutions but have to accept any solution is likely to mean that I'll be using one format and cropping to another, not something that really appeals.

From what I've seen I'd certainly recommend use of the CFV as long as you can live with the limitations and the fact that the files really *aren't* very film like ;-)

Take care

Keith
 
Firstly, I have to say that I wouldn't make any judgements about anything based on JPEGs displayed on the web.

Having now seen many files from the CFV and .... have seen files from those same backs that are really very good.

Secondly, of all the MFD files I've now seen not one of them had a quality anything like film,.... Generally speaking the digital files display a far more accurate representation, are far cleaner and the RAW files are just so flexible.

You might wonder given the comments above why I'm still using film. ... I need that true 38 or 40mm lens.

The CFV files are also far too small for my needs. The 22MP backs *are* 16MP backs when cropped square and therefore have no advantage for me. I'm currently looking at other solutions but have to accept any solution is likely to mean that I'll be using one format and cropping to another, not something that really appeals.

From what I've seen I'd certainly recommend use of the CFV as long as you can live with the limitations and the fact that the files really *aren't* very film like ;-)

Keith,
CFV files are nothing like any film I've used, but I find the images just as pleasing than any 6x6 film I've used. As it avoids film processing and as drum scans are a complete no'no' for me, I find it far more practical for me to use than film. However, the opportunity/necessity remains for wide shots with film, so for me, the point is diluted. I also believe that your vision changes depending upon what gear you have available..... How many photographers use a long lens on a 5x4, or a Leica M. I suggest that your creativity will flow and take advantage of what kit you have to hand and perfect pictures will follow.

Obviously, no idea what you're now looking at, but I've seriously considered the 1Ds Mk III as it would expand on existing kit I own, but shooting 3x2 for square images doesn't come easily for me. And ... it's much more expensive. A used CFV can be had for around £3.5k and the depreciation on that will be minimal. However, you write as though there's nothing suitable available for you. I hope that changes.
 
Hi Simon

Many thanks for your detailed reply, appreciated.



Firstly, I have to say that I wouldn't make any judgements about anything based on JPEGs displayed on the web.

Having now seen many files from the CFV and P20 plus others from 22MP backs I've come to the conclusion that the processing of the files and the software/workflow are all important. I've seen files from the CFV/P20 that display all the negative attributes that you mention and yet have seen files from those same backs that are really very good.

Secondly, the two capture methods are completely different and I see this as a positive not a negative. Generally speaking the digital files display a far more accurate representation, are far cleaner and the RAW files are just so flexible. Remember, I'm not comparing scans made on a flatbed or prosumer CCD scanners here but top quality drumscans.

You might wonder given the comments above why I'm still using film. The fact is I'm a square shooter, it's the main reason I use 500 series cameras. Unfortunately the only square sensor back available is the CFV with the inherent wide angle limitations, I need that true 38 or 40mm lens. The CFV files are also far too small for my needs. The 22MP backs *are* 16MP backs when cropped square and therefore have no advantage for me. I'm currently looking at other solutions but have to accept any solution is likely to mean that I'll be using one format and cropping to another, not something that really appeals.

From what I've seen I'd certainly recommend use of the CFV as long as you can live with the limitations and the fact that the files really *aren't* very film like ;-)

Take care

Keith

IMO, these last couple of posts are pretty accurate in their assessments and opinions.

Personally, I'd clarify Keith's statement " ... of all the MFD files I've now seen not one of them had a quality anything like film," ... I take that as meaning: digital doesn't have the "Qualities" of film. Both deliver image "Quality", but their "Qualities" differ.

Let's face it, for the most part the touchstone has been the look of film for many of us because most of us who've worked with Medium Format for any length of time, (especially the ubiquitous 6X6 Hasselblad or Rollei cameras) are steeped in the aesthetic of film ... it's how and where we formed our tastes as to what we do like and don't like.

Many younger photographers haven't that long experience, if any at all, with film. They see the drudgery, lack of immediacy, and apparent uncertainty of the film process more than the results ... and their end evaluations are often based on viewing sub one meg jpgs on internet sites like this, not analog prints. I know for a fact that film suffers more than digital in this viewing environment ... if for nothing more than the obvious reason that film must be digitized to be viewed, and translates random sized grain into regimented, uniform pixels ... that are in turn viewed on a computer screen that accents the grain that's usually diffused in the analog enlargement process ... not to mention the whole on-screen "Pixel Peeping" phenomena that really gives film grain a bad rap.

Believe me, film images scanned on my Imacon 949 and printed on my Epson 3800 bark with my big dog H3D-II/39, because it is one of the few scanners that employs a diffused light source ... (another being the discontinued MF Minolta Pro with a modified light source.) For this reason, I prefer 949 printed scans even over drum scans, or Imacon 848 scans, I've gotten in the past.

In fact, similar to Keith's evaluation, I've yet to produce any digital image with any piece of gear that aesthetically pleases my eye as much as a well scanned film image. It's all so subjective that it is an impossible argument to engage in with digital mavens. It just "is what it is" on a personal level.

As a note, I just returned from a short Holiday. Since I was driving I could take anything I wanted with me. I took my M8, Nikon D300 with Zeiss glass, and a H kit. In that H kit I took my new H2F film camera and a pouch of B&W film. It was so much fun shooting that film camera that I hardly touched the 35mm digital cameras. I shot about 50 frames of film with the H2F, and about 200 with the H3D. I'm more excited about the H2F stuff than the H3D and I haven't even seen the film stuff yet ... LOL. I feel that way because I have confidence in film from shooting it for so many years.

I think the commercial photographer has little or no choice in the matter. It's digital. For everyone else there is still a choice. The only bug-a-boo with film is the disappearing resources that make it even more inconvienient to use in an age where we want it our way, and we want it now!

For example, here are a few vacation snaps from the H3D-II/39 that I can show you now, not 2 weeks from now : -) One low light interior of an old country store shot @ ISO 400, f/3.2, 1/25th hand-held with a HC/50 ... and one outdoors of an Historic Lighthouse in Northern Michigan ISO 200 with the HC 28/4 @ f/9, 1/160th (using a 95mm B+W Polarizer If I recall correctly.)
 

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Keith,
CFV files are nothing like any film I've used, but I find the images just as pleasing than any 6x6 film I've used. As it avoids film processing and as drum scans are a complete no'no' for me, I find it far more practical for me to use than film. However, the opportunity/necessity remains for wide shots with film, so for me, the point is diluted. I also believe that your vision changes depending upon what gear you have available..... How many photographers use a long lens on a 5x4, or a Leica M. I suggest that your creativity will flow and take advantage of what kit you have to hand and perfect pictures will follow.

Obviously, no idea what you're now looking at, but I've seriously considered the 1Ds Mk III as it would expand on existing kit I own, but shooting 3x2 for square images doesn't come easily for me. And ... it's much more expensive. A used CFV can be had for around £3.5k and the depreciation on that will be minimal. However, you write as though there's nothing suitable available for you. I hope that changes.

IMO, wait and look at the Nikon high meg DSLR due soon before deciding on the 1DsMKIII.

The 1DsMKIII is a camera I currently have and it is terrific up to a point ... but has been overshadowed by the Hasselblad H3D-II/31 I bought when Hasselblad reduced the price to $17,995. USD ... a camera which has proven to operationally take the Canon's place while providing higher IQ ... and uses all my CFi and CFE Zeiss lenses when I want.

My Canon 1DsMKIII and all my Canon lenses are going on the auction block soon. Want it Gary ? LOL!
 
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