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Digital back vs scanned film

The CFV-39 and CFV-50 have the same sensor size:

Sensor size: 39 Mpixels (5412 x 7212 pixels)
Sensor dimensions: 36.7 x 49.1 mm (Lens factor 1.1) and 36.7 x 36.7 mm (Lens factor 1.5)

The crop in 6x4.5 mode is cited as 1.1

I'm not sure how true that really is.

For wide-angles it is an issue, but not for other lenses.

More details are here:

http://www.hasselblad.se/products/digital-backs/discontinued-products/cfv-39.aspx


I tried hyperfocal focussing - no luck - I could imagine that akin to dSLRs - so micro-tuning is needed to correct for forward or back focus... I've read on some forums of users have their camera and CFV back matched by Hasselblad.
 
The way I look at the crop factor is its roughly the same that I would get enlarging a B&W or color negative in an enlarger. The negative carrier crops and there's some crop on the easel. If youre printing 8x10 prints from youre 6x6 then it's almost exactly what you get if making wet prints in the darkroom.
 
biglouis

This is a most interesting thread and very useful for a new Hass user like myself.
....

Reading this thread I think I have convinced myself that a way forward for me is to invest in a top end scanner (I am currently using a V700 which is good but not good enough) or build into the cost of my photography regular visits to a studio where I can rent an immacon for a couple of hours.

Anyway, thanks again for all the interesting posts in this thread. Very helpful indeed.

LouisB



Crop on my Phase P25+ is 1.1 and is meaningless to me. But if you do landscapes with wide lenses I seriously suggest using 4x5. It is a much better way to go.

That being said, I think your logic is off some. Digital sensors replaced scanners and not film. With film it is: camera>film>processing>scanning = RGB separation. With digital it is: camera>scanner = RGB separation (or could be cmyk). With digital you have eliminated film, processing (and errors there) and scanning ( inherently unsharp and dust dirt problems). So paying more for a digital back is worth it in many ways. Your Epson may be a good solution for now but to pay a lot of money for a high end scanner isn't worth it -- spend it on the digital back. The digital back will have more dynamic range than most scanners except the high end drums.

Another problem is that film manufacturers make film for the amateur market and when that has dried up they will dump the manufacture of film. The last I heard was that Kodak makes 60% of the digital sensors for the world. Why would they want to support a product that competes with their own main source of income? Film will go the way of the Versamat, Disc camera and PhotoCD and that is why you can't find a Nikon scanner or Minolta (I have one) now.

There is a uniqueness to B&W film but there was a uniqueness to Dagguerotypes, Ambrotypes, Tintypes, Polaroid etc. Time catches up with all things. Right now isn't the end or final word on digital quality -- more will come. 12 stops dynamic range for MF backs I believe -- 16 stops for color negative film -- 21 stops for Technical Pan film -- good for film but what do we print that on that gives the same range? Nothing that I know of.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

BC
 
Crop on my Phase P25+ is 1.1 and is meaningless to me. But if you do landscapes with wide lenses I seriously suggest using 4x5. It is a much better way to go.

That being said, I think your logic is off some. Digital sensors replaced scanners and not film. With film it is: camera>film>processing>scanning = RGB separation. With digital it is: camera>scanner = RGB separation (or could be cmyk). With digital you have eliminated film, processing (and errors there) and scanning ( inherently unsharp and dust dirt problems). So paying more for a digital back is worth it in many ways. Your Epson may be a good solution for now but to pay a lot of money for a high end scanner isn't worth it -- spend it on the digital back. The digital back will have more dynamic range than most scanners except the high end drums.

Another problem is that film manufacturers make film for the amateur market and when that has dried up they will dump the manufacture of film. The last I heard was that Kodak makes 60% of the digital sensors for the world. Why would they want to support a product that competes with their own main source of income? Film will go the way of the Versamat, Disc camera and PhotoCD and that is why you can't find a Nikon scanner or Minolta (I have one) now.

There is a uniqueness to B&W film but there was a uniqueness to Dagguerotypes, Ambrotypes, Tintypes, Polaroid etc. Time catches up with all things. Right now isn't the end or final word on digital quality -- more will come. 12 stops dynamic range for MF backs I believe -- 16 stops for color negative film -- 21 stops for Technical Pan film -- good for film but what do we print that on that gives the same range? Nothing that I know of.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

BC

FYI, Kodak recently sold their digital sensor division.

-Marc
 
Thanks for adding that, Marc.

There are a lot of real pros still using film:

http://www.michaelkenna.net/interviews/hokkaido_j.html

(Interesting to see how weatherproof an old 500 series was ...)

John Sexton (Ansel Adam's assistant) is still using Kodak film as well.

We still use loads of film in the lab (biochemistry).... for certain applications there is just no alternative.... any idea what a 8x10" back or larger would cost?

Recently Fuji has re-released Velvia 50 due to demand.

That said, I really love digital - and don't long back to the days of manually developing E-6 on a Jobo!
 
Real pros

Thanks for adding that, Marc.

There are a lot of real pros still using film:

http://www.michaelkenna.net/interviews/hokkaido_j.html

(Interesting to see how weatherproof an old 500 series was ...)

John Sexton (Ansel Adam's assistant) is still using Kodak film as well.

We still use loads of film in the lab (biochemistry).... for certain applications there is just no alternative.... any idea what a 8x10" back or larger would cost?

Recently Fuji has re-released Velvia 50 due to demand.

That said, I really love digital - and don't long back to the days of manually developing E-6 on a Jobo!


I don't know what you mean by "real pro" unless that was some slam at me. I worked 35 years as a "real pro" in advertising and switched to digital only when the clients demanded it. Film is good and great and is still the best for cars and food I think. But the city I worked in had a population of one million with 4 pro labs that fell one-by-by-one to digital and now there are NO pro labs. Look for typesetters -- digital services killed them. How about separation houses?

Maybe you aren't old enough to remember when people actually used film on a large scale -- camera stores had freezers fully stocked with about any film a person needed. (yeah pros use refrigerated film not the green stuff off the shelf meant for all but a few amateurs) Now most of the film in the store (we had a few pro type stores a decade ago) here is color negative. We ordered 8x10 film and Polaroid in cases back then -- the stores kept freezer stock for us to draw from so we had a large stock of a single emulsion.

I would have preferred that digital cameras had never come along since I made a 100% markup on the film I shot.

The only thing that is sure is that things will change including digital cameras or capture.

BC
 
Different kind of "pro" is all it means.

Kenna and many other "Art Pros" still use film, where most (not all) commercial Pros have gone 100% digital.

I love film and the look it produces, but now only have one film camera left in my gear closet ... a Mamiya RZ67 Pro-IID with most of the lenses, which I keep around just in case the film bug bites me again. Notably, sitting on the desk behind me is a Imacon 949 scanner that a fellow bought from me 2 years ago and never picked up ... WTF! I also have a full blown B&W darkroom with a killer Kaiser enlarger and APO lenses that's been unused for over 5 years.

For my commercial work I do not miss film at all. I shoot a H4D/60 with its tasty Dalsa sensor tethered to dual 30" screens, and clients approve on the spot ... no nail biting wait for the film from the lab, and any issues with shooting show up immediately not after the client, models, hair/make-up, stylists and PAs are gone and the workers paid.

For stuff like weddings, I process the images and print orders are filled with a click of the mouse and sent to an Epson 3880 ... infinitely repeatable no matter how many copies are ordered.

-Marc
 
fotograz

Different kind of "pro" is all it means.

Kenna and many other "Art Pros" still use film, where most (not all) commercial Pros have gone 100% digital.

I love film and the look it produces, but now only have one film camera left in my gear closet ... a Mamiya RZ67 Pro-IID with most of the lenses, which I keep around just in case the film bug bites me again. Notably, sitting on the desk behind me is a Imacon 949 scanner that a fellow bought from me 2 years ago and never picked up ... WTF! I also have a full blown B&W darkroom with a killer Kaiser enlarger and APO lenses that's been unused for over 5 years.

For my commercial work I do not miss film at all. I shoot a H4D/60 with its tasty Dalsa sensor tethered to dual 30" screens, and clients approve on the spot ... no nail biting wait for the film from the lab, and any issues with shooting show up immediately not after the client, models, hair/make-up, stylists and PAs are gone and the workers paid.

For stuff like weddings, I process the images and print orders are filled with a click of the mouse and sent to an Epson 3880 ... infinitely repeatable no matter how many copies are ordered.

-Marc


OK I see -- I've never thought of fine artists as "pros". I think of them as serious amateurs. That is not a bad thing since it means they pursue photography for the love of it. Quite a few of the "pros" I've known really don't like photography and do little to none for themselves.

I miss film for several reason that I've stated -- the look being one. Somehow my mind feels like it is being fooled when I look at a digital image. Now in your case though you are digitizing your beautiful silver images and thereby corrupting them. To keep the silver look you need to enlarge to silver prints. I don't miss the darkroom.

Film basically died here and digital allowed the photographer pool to multiply times ten. People that couldn't begin to figure out film suddenly became expert shooters with digital -- lighting? What's that? Fix it in post.

That RZ is a nice camera -- the scanner a nice one too. I've had a microtec flatbed that does ok on film and a Minolta that does 6x7 and down. But I find that spotting the film is too tedious. The Minolta uses a glass carrier and is a nuisance -- soft image and sharp dirt.

Years ago I did a shoot with 20+ table tops for an annual report on fuji 4x5 transparency film. It was a Friday and I turned the film into the lab. On Monday I had another shoot but I had the film picked up from the lab at noon. I found out that they had accidentally run the film through the C41 process. Those were some really nasty negatives. I had to shoot the entire brochure over after the other job was finished. The lab gave me a new box of film for their mistake. This is just one of the many reasons that I wouldn't shoot film commercially.

I have a Canon IPF 5100 printer that I really like except for the ink costs. Also my Sinar 4x5 sits idle, I should probably sell it along with the unused darkroom equipment.

Advertising photography appealed to me because I liked being in control of everything on the shoot. Weddings though, seem to be an "out of control" type situation. Good luck on those.

BC
 
No slammer of your work, or any other photographers working in advertising at all... just a nudge and a wink - that film is not restricted to the amateur market (that has been captured by the likes of iPhones etc).

I can still remember when Ernst Haas filled several fridges with Kodachrome 25, because Kodak had ceased it's manufacture.

And no, I don't miss film - although I do miss my darkroom... who knows - maybe in future... it did have a special kind of magic.
 
Is that the case with the CV-39? I thought it was 1.33? Can anyone point me to the specification which states exactly what the crop factors are? LouisB

The CFV-39 is 1.1x crop. The H4D-31/40 is 1.3x, which was the subject of our off-line conversation. Sorry, if that wasn't clear.

What I find confusing with crop factors, is the acceptance of the Hasselblad user base to accept the 1.5x crop on the vertical dimension. it's taken for granted that (6x4.5) is all thats available, so accept it ..... etc.

Now, I've not met, nor read about, a single Hasselblad user who thinks a Mamiya/Pentax 645 is the same tool as a 6x6 V on film. Never met a Hasselblad user who used the available 645 back as the preferred back and in fact have never met one who actually owned a 645 film back. But we seem to shrug our shoulders and accept that the wide dimension, defines the crop.

Well, purchase a 645 V back, put it on your SWC, and tell me if it works for you. I suspect you'll notice something missing.

I also read that the CFV-39 is not suitable for the SWC, but I don't know if that's completely unsuitable, or only on the outer edges of the frame. Perhaps someone can advise ?

I've owned a CFV-16 and found the 1.5x crop too restrictive and sold it on. Despite what I've written above, I'm really interested in a 1.1x H4D for the AF feature, but the price of that baby is well outside my budget and so, I'm contemplating a used CFV-39 again and hoping that the extra pixels, vs the CFV-16, will make up for the 50% vertical crop for portraits. I hope somebody here will expand on that.

Maybe, I'm not giving due credit to the H4D-41 with it's heavier crop and missing the advantages of the camera compared to the CFV option.
 
The CFV-39 is 1.1x crop. The H4D-31/40 is 1.3x, which was the subject of our off-line conversation. Sorry, if that wasn't clear.

My 500CM, a 50/4 and a CFV-39 and I could be very happy.

I'd also be without one of my kidneys but... hey... who needs two?

LouisB
 
and in fact have never met one who actually owned a 645 film back.

Whilst you've never met me, I have used a V system A16 back and actually had two, still have one for sale. If I was shooting something that did not require the square format I used the A16 back.

I am with you though regarding the cropping of a CFV image to take a vertical image and why the CFV as my choice for a V system back would be behind Phase One and Leaf as they both have the facility to fit the back in either orientation to maximise the amount of pixels available, hell, as said before even my 2004 Imacon Ixpress 528C back has the facility to be attached in either orientation when used with the V system adapter, and the connector for the lead to the Imagebank has even been designed to swivel through 90 degrees to aid this function.

Although I would love a 503CW with a matched Full Frame 56mm x 56mm square digital back I am pretty sure that it will never happen, I have taken to the H series body better than I ever expected and am now very pleased with the H series body and the HC lenses and even the Ixpress 528C digital back that I own, this is further embedded with every use of the system. If I can get the funds I will add the tilt/shift adapter and 28mm HC lens (will probably need a lottery win) to give me a fantastic outfit that will pretty much cater for all my needs although to be fair I suspect that I would then want to upgrade the body and back at some time in the future too.
 
OK I see -- I've never thought of fine artists as "pros". I think of them as serious amateurs. That is not a bad thing since it means they pursue photography for the love of it. Quite a few of the "pros" I've known really don't like photography and do little to none for themselves.

I miss film for several reason that I've stated -- the look being one. Somehow my mind feels like it is being fooled when I look at a digital image. Now in your case though you are digitizing your beautiful silver images and thereby corrupting them. To keep the silver look you need to enlarge to silver prints. I don't miss the darkroom.

Film basically died here and digital allowed the photographer pool to multiply times ten. People that couldn't begin to figure out film suddenly became expert shooters with digital -- lighting? What's that? Fix it in post.

That RZ is a nice camera -- the scanner a nice one too. I've had a microtec flatbed that does ok on film and a Minolta that does 6x7 and down. But I find that spotting the film is too tedious. The Minolta uses a glass carrier and is a nuisance -- soft image and sharp dirt.

Years ago I did a shoot with 20+ table tops for an annual report on fuji 4x5 transparency film. It was a Friday and I turned the film into the lab. On Monday I had another shoot but I had the film picked up from the lab at noon. I found out that they had accidentally run the film through the C41 process. Those were some really nasty negatives. I had to shoot the entire brochure over after the other job was finished. The lab gave me a new box of film for their mistake. This is just one of the many reasons that I wouldn't shoot film commercially.

I have a Canon IPF 5100 printer that I really like except for the ink costs. Also my Sinar 4x5 sits idle, I should probably sell it along with the unused darkroom equipment.

Advertising photography appealed to me because I liked being in control of everything on the shoot. Weddings though, seem to be an "out of control" type situation. Good luck on those.

BC

Personally, I don't make distinctions between types of Professional Photographers. If they make their living at it, then they are a pro IMO.

I once bought a small Kenna print from a well respected gallery to add to my modest collection of B&Ws. I then decided to focus my collection on images of famous artists photographed by famous photographers and sold the Kenna for a Henri Cartier-Bresson print of Mattise working in his sun filled Avignon studio ... that Kenna print has appreciated so much that I could not afford to buy one today. Trust me, fine art photography CAN be a business ... and photographers like Cindy Sherman are millionaires from it.

I think when we discuss digitized film images, we have to understand that there are huge qualitative differences in both how an image is digitized, and then how it is processed and printed. Dedicated desktop scanners like those from Minolta and Nikon cannot hold a candle to something like the Hasselblad X5 (basically a rebadged Imacon 949) which costs as much as a high-end MFD digital back ... and in some cases, professional drum scanning can be even better. Steve McCurry not only uses a H camera for some assignments, he uses a Imacon 848 to scan his film images. Joel Meyerowitz also uses a Hasselblad scanner ... so does Magnium Photos.

Digital post processing for B&W has advanced a lot in just a few years. Nik Silver Efex-2 is just an amazing piece of software with every tonal spread and grain structure of every film I've ever used.

Printing is another area that has evolved considerably ... I use an Epson 3880 with a RIP and fiber papers like Crane's Silver Rag that looks and feels like double weight Zone VI Brilliant that was one of my favorite darkroom papers. For larger prints, a well scanned image looks pretty good when laser printed onto silver-print paper.

One other amazing thing I discovered is how faithful a flat bed scan of an existing silver print can be. I was trying to scan my film archive when there was a neg I couldn't locate, so I scanned the print I had from that neg on an Epson V750 PRO. Wow! Does that ever work well. I believe Elliot Erwitt used that technique rather than scanning his film negs. So, if you still make true silver prints, I'd suggest scanning the print as opposed to the neg if you also want a digital version of that image.

Of course, for film lovers like me, there is still a shimmering magic to a well made darkroom silver print ... but I do have to admit that with today's evolved digital conversions, it is getting harder and harder to tell them apart.

I also like the control aspects of much commercial studio photography. However, it often involved so many other support people and marshaling independent resources that I felt like a symphony conductor more than a photographer. Weddings can be chaotic, but I am basically shooting alone or with just one assistant.

Sadly, you are right that digital has swelled the photographer pool in all areas of photography. I do have to say that I think this is because of the people buying the work, not those making the work. Seems more and more buyers don't value the craft and think anyone can do anything if they call themselves professionals.

-Marc
 
Marc,

nice to see you used ZoneVi Brilliant... I still have a ZoneVI modified 4x4" Beseler Cold-light enlarger - a traditional silver print has a totally different "aura" about it.

Have you tried "www.digitalsilverimaging.com"? - see my post in Darkroom sector. Might be worthy exploring.

Wish I could afford a Kenna or such like print...

Cheers

S
 
The CFV-39 is 1.1x crop. The H4D-31/40 is 1.3x, which was the subject of our off-line conversation. Sorry, if that wasn't clear.

What I find confusing with crop factors, is the acceptance of the Hasselblad user base to accept the 1.5x crop on the vertical dimension. it's taken for granted that (6x4.5) is all thats available, so accept it ..... etc.

Now, I've not met, nor read about, a single Hasselblad user who thinks a Mamiya/Pentax 645 is the same tool as a 6x6 V on film. Never met a Hasselblad user who used the available 645 back as the preferred back and in fact have never met one who actually owned a 645 film back. But we seem to shrug our shoulders and accept that the wide dimension, defines the crop.

Well, purchase a 645 V back, put it on your SWC, and tell me if it works for you. I suspect you'll notice something missing.

I also read that the CFV-39 is not suitable for the SWC, but I don't know if that's completely unsuitable, or only on the outer edges of the frame. Perhaps someone can advise ?

I've owned a CFV-16 and found the 1.5x crop too restrictive and sold it on. Despite what I've written above, I'm really interested in a 1.1x H4D for the AF feature, but the price of that baby is well outside my budget and so, I'm contemplating a used CFV-39 again and hoping that the extra pixels, vs the CFV-16, will make up for the 50% vertical crop for portraits. I hope somebody here will expand on that.

Maybe, I'm not giving due credit to the H4D-41 with it's heavier crop and missing the advantages of the camera compared to the CFV option.

The meg count of the CFV/39 will make a difference in resolution compared to a CFV/16. When cropped to a square the CFV/39 is 29 meg., nearly double the meg count. The CFV/39 square crop is 36.7 X 36.7 producing a lens crop factor of 1.5X which is the same as the CFV/16 ... so those restrictions in terms of focal lengths remain the same. If you crop a typical 3:4 ratio from that 29 meg square the meg count will drop accordingly ... so you'd probably be dealing with less than 20 meg compared to the full 39 meg if you were using a H3D/39 in portrait orientation.

The H3D/31, H3D-II/31 and H4D/31 or 40 are a 1.3X crop with HC lenses and 1.2X crop factor with the HCD lenses (28mm and 35-90mm), ... but deliver the full 31 or 40 meg when shot in portrait orientation. I never worried much about the additional 1.2X crop factor verse the 39 or 50 1.1X backs. I pretty much evaluate visually through the viewfinder, and my pea brain automatically adjusts for it. The viewfinder on each different model only shows the taking areas anyway.

Price wise, I urge patience. Very capable H4D/40s are or will be available for very reasonable prices ... as more H4D/60 sell, and Hasselblad advances to the next step in the relentless evolution to keep pace with or leap-frog their competitors, some flush pros and most every Dentist will dump their H4D/40 and step up ... just wait and see.

Another thing to take note of is that if you secure a H3D/39 and trade it later during one of the Hasselblad trade promos, it will command the same value as a more expensive H3D-II/39 ... odd thinking, but that's the way it is.

-Marc
 
Marc,

nice to see you used ZoneVi Brilliant... I still have a ZoneVI modified 4x4" Beseler Cold-light enlarger - a traditional silver print has a totally different "aura" about it.

Have you tried "www.digitalsilverimaging.com"? - see my post in Darkroom sector. Might be worthy exploring.

Wish I could afford a Kenna or such like print...

Cheers

S

Yeah, my Kaiser is a cold light diffusion enlarger also. I also once used a Leica enlarger for 35mm, but sold it while it was still quite valuable. I was totally addicted to Zone Vi and used most of their dark-room products. Brilliant was really super silver-rich when it was made in France, but lost some of its magic when they changed suppliers. Heck, I used to shoot weddings with a Leica M6 and 503CW, than printed all the traditional slip-in type album prints in my darkroom ... 40 or 50 selenium toned 8X10s on drying screens all over my studio floor ... LOL! Those clients don't know what they have now.

I found the same thing about B&W films, they started getting miserly with the silver content, and the marketing propaganda would try to convince you it was an "improved film" ... it was then that I realized it was a losing quest to keep on with 100% film. Although, I've heard that some European film makers are now using the old methods of more silver rich films. This where to explore if that is still true:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/c403-Black-and-White-Film-120-and-127-size

When I bought the Kenna print he was just getting to be noticed, so I got in on the ground floor. I bought it on the recommendation of the print dealer, and he was 100% right, Kenna's work soared in value. But in the end, I sold it because I prefer other photographer's work more, specifically those who shoot people. The Kenna had increased in value so much that when I sold it, it allowed me to get another print I wanted that I couldn't afford. Win, win!

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

-Marc
 
Thanks for the link, Marc.

There are still a few places selling film locally - there seems to be quite a strong following in Germany and France.

I did produce a few B&W portfolios for fellow musicians - but decided if that were to be a way of life - I would starve - or die of selenium poisoning before long.. most people have no appreciation of what DR work entails.
 
Thanks for the link, Marc.

There are still a few places selling film locally - there seems to be quite a strong following in Germany and France.

I did produce a few B&W portfolios for fellow musicians - but decided if that were to be a way of life - I would starve - or die of selenium poisoning before long.. most people have no appreciation of what DR work entails.

Yeah, even though my DR was well ventilated, I'm surprised that I haven't croaked from all the crap I inhaled and touched in the DR all those years. Some of those "rotten egg" smelling toners had to be lethal ... and I Selenium toned most every other B&W print I ever made.

-Marc
 
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