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Digital back vs scanned film

I have to concur with Marc's view here.

Having had the opportunity to test a CFV-50 back at leisure - and ending up very frustrated with hit and miss results - we have decided to move to an H system.

I really would give it a try before commiting to buy.

Focus is critical with these systems, and for our post 50 eyes, AF is a real boon.
In addition having access to a true wide-angle lenses, while using all our V system lenses is a true boon.

2nd hand H systems can be had for less than $10.000
 
Thanks Marc,

I probably should clarify that this decision is a business based one. I am not a hobbyist, nor do I make so much money out of photography that $30,000 can be written off as an expense.

I need to generate income from my work to justify the cost. On that basis the decision to buy a used back (compared to using film and getting it scanned) fits in with my business plan. Paying more than 10K cannot be justified at present.

The suggestion of a H3D-II/39 isn't anywhere near $30,000. They are available used.

I should also clarify ... I'm not a hobbyist either, I run a business and fully understand ROI on gear selections.

For a $10.000. budget, look for a H3D/39 which has the same LCD preview as the CFV/39 ... both of which are better than the Phase One P45 back's LCD. Unlike a H3D-II, the H3D can also take film backs.

I see H3Ds without a lens sell for about $8,000. give or take ... and CF Adapters are $1,095 new and sell used for about $700 to $800 = under your $10,000. budget.

Or a H3D-II/31 which is an absolutely fabulous camera, and most likely can also be had for well under $10,000. with the 80/2.8 AF lens. BTW, I can buy a NEW H4D/31 body for about $11,800 which adds True Focus with AF lenses.

BTW, when I switched from film to Digital Medium Format, I formed a separate LCC company which bought the digital gear. I then rented it from that company at a day rate similar to any rental house, and included it as a line item when billing clients. Many if not most professional photographers rent gear on a regular basis, and it is a well accepted procedure when presented that way to client bean counters and marketing executives.

As a result, the cost of MFD gear paid for itself in about a two year cycle of rentals ... sometimes three years if business was slower in certain years. Over the long term it helped keep my gear current ... and today I use a H4D/60 and have every lens I want and need ... none of which I could justify or afford to buy straight out today had I not relentlessly used this technique to pay for it.


My 3¢

-Marc
 
Very interesting. I will certainly look at used prices. I like the business model of renting equipment back to myself. It is increasingly looking like the 500C/M will be used with film.

Adam
 
Marc

The renting from a different company is a great idea....

Adam, I strongly suggest looking at used equipment as well - we got a very good deal on a H3D-31, way below the price of a used phase 1 / leaf back for our V system.
We plan to upgrade to a H4D later.

http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/ is a good site to check out for used equipment.

I also got a good deal on a CF adapter here on HB info (thanks Eddy) - so our V lenses are still in use.

best
S
 
Yep, my folks raised me to be a hard-working savvy businessman, and lucky for me God provided a bit of talent ... which is why I'm still in business ... LOL!

Not only did I rent back the photo gear, I discovered that it was okay to rent back much of my lighting packages and line list them in quotes and invoices. Now I have a full blown Profoto system that clients paid for :)

That part can be a bit tricker with some clients today with the down economy, but some still accept it with no questions. Otherwise, you can do it if you also place your studio under the other LCC and rent it all back. If clients want YOU to shoot and you aren't just a commodity, this works almost 100% of the time. When it doesn't work, you can cave in and eliminate it, and the bean counters then feel they did their job and often leave the rest of the bid stand as is.

BTW, the way to make this seem like you are saving the client money, is to canvas all the local rental houses and then price your rentals slightly lower. The bean counters sometimes want a 3 bit on outside costs, so you'll win this one every time. If you would have to rent from out-of-town, you save them even more.

In addition to the Hasselblad Digital Forum (which is an excellent suggestion), place a Want To Buy (WTB) request here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=29

I located a mint, very low use H3D-II/39 with lens kit for an associate of mine for a little over $10,000. on that site. Don't hesitate to make an offer. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

-Marc
 
(...)
I don't understand why folks have a bug up their A** about turning th camera on it's side. I use one of the 90 degree 70mm prisms and it works great. I use it with a combination of bodies, 500EL/M, 500 C/M and my main body a 501CM. The inability to turn the back verticle is a non issue for me.

(...) .
I just recieved a 90° 70mm prism.. (Ok I had to buy a ELM and a A70 back + pola back to get a kit ! Now I have to sell a body and 2 backs !)

The viewfinder is very good, it's realy more heavy now and if you do not use tripods not easy. I had to use the 503cw & winder to handle the body correct. I noticed that I need a stronger head for my tripod if I tweest body for vertical shots. For inside pictures ok for long stay outside ....:-(

Foccusing is not so difficult with V as it's possible to focus anywhere on the screen. The problem is short DOF with MF digital.

Happy not havving central AF habbit when I use tripod for portrait.
 
fotografz

I know I'm late to this discussion, and you may have already acted on this, not to mention there will be a howl and cry at this suggestion.



There is a reason that the H kit is the number one tool of fashion and glamor shooters worldwide.

I would have advised against the Phase One back for two key reasons. It requires a sync cord from the V lens to the back (which from experience instantly become the weak link in the process of shooting and the product of misfires all to often) ... and to shoot in portrait requires removal of the back to turn it. This exposes the sensor to both electronically attracted dust like a magnet ... and more importantly, accidental damage to the IR cover glass ...which happens more times than you may think. That is an expensive repair that has to be sent back to the factory to be done which takes weeks and weeks.

I fact, I'd advise searching very hard for a nice H4D/40 ... I sold one without a lens but otherwise complete for $12,000. 7 months ago. Then a whole new world of possibilities would be in your hands.

My 2¢ on the subject.

-Marc



Your advice may be sound to go with the H system but the reasons to not use the Phase back are not founded in experience.

The cord is not a problem on the Phase backs. There are two type cords and the smaller one can be troublesome in the vertical position but the larger more solid cord works well. But if given the option to have no cord then I would opt for that.

The idea that the exposed sensor attracts dust is nonsense. I change mine outside in the wind and I have seen ONE dust particle in well over a year of use. In the hands of a clumsy or careless photographer the sensor could be damaged but then again so could any lens or camera. Repairs to the phase backs I think can be made here in NYC. Mine hasn't needed repair. It also didn't need any "shims" to attain critical focus.

Another point -- the original poster said he shoots fashion. I shot advertising. Most of my jobs could have been done on an 8 MP back due to the final printed size. How large will the fashion shot be used? 39MP makes one very large final image and makes handling a lot of shots time consuming. My 33mp is big enough for me. Some fashion people like more MP to avoid moire. But I've never seen moire on my Phase back when the image is viewed at 100%.

Finding an H system camera and back for under 10K though would be nice other than having to rotate the camera for verticals -- one reason I never went to 645 film cameras.

BC
 
fotografz

Yep, my folks raised me to be a hard-working savvy businessman, and lucky for me God provided a bit of talent ... which is why I'm still in business ... LOL!

Not only did I rent back the photo gear, I discovered that it was okay to rent back much of my lighting packages and line list them in quotes and invoices. Now I have a full blown Profoto system that clients paid for :)

That part can be a bit tricker with some clients today with the down economy, but some still accept it with no questions. Otherwise, you can do it if you also place your studio under the other LCC and rent it all back. If clients want YOU to shoot and you aren't just a commodity, this works almost 100% of the time. When it doesn't work, you can cave in and eliminate it, and the bean counters then feel they did their job and often leave the rest of the bid stand as is.

BTW, the way to make this seem like you are saving the client money, is to canvas all the local rental houses and then price your rentals slightly lower. The bean counters sometimes want a 3 bit on outside costs, so you'll win this one every time. If you would have to rent from out-of-town, you save them even more.

I

-Marc


In a down economy it is difficult to get money for anything the client thinks the photographer should have -- like background materials or other supplies or equipment for your area of specialization (architectural etc. photographer is expected to own the right equipment). Renting in my area was not an option for photographers so we had to purchase nearly everything. But my day rates were high enough to have a large Godard system -- 6400 pack, (2) 3200's and a 1600 along with 4 monoblocs. Some expenses are considered "the cost of doing business". I've charged for the rental of generators, larger spaces, props, models (people and specially made items), food stylists, panoramic cameras or special wide lenses and that was all understood up front. My clients just didn't like the idea of paying rental for standard equipment that a photographer should own. Of course some charges can be "buried" in the flat dayrate or project shooting fee quote.

BC
 
For the H4Ds, which are the go to lenses for environmental portraiture and short-distance landscapes/townscapes? There's a Hass promo announced here today to acquire a second lens at 50% of the retail price, so seems sensible to start with 2 optics.

I could get there with serious selling, but in addition to V kit, I'd need to walk away from film completely which means selling my Imacon. That's a one way street.

The V adapter looks interesting, but I've noted a few photographers who've tried to adapt V lenses, but given up and transferred to H completely.

Any reason not to settle for the H4D-31 ??

Please recommend.
 
Well, the business model I mentioned does depend on the area you work in, what level of photography you do, and what the bid protocol may be with your clients. Never said it would work for everyone, I said it worked for me ... and worked for quite a few other photographers that I know around the USA ... which is where I learned how to do this in the first place. It wasn't my original idea, it is common practice.

My actual life-long career was as an advertising Art-Director, then CD, then Executive Creative Director for ad agencies like Young and Rubicam ... where over the years I have bid out and reviewed multi-million$ of dollars in photography. In addition, I also started a commercial photo studio using my contacts in the ad industry.

An insight from the other side: (Boring blah, blah for non-comercial shooters: -)

Generally, a photographer is selected for their specific expertise, energy, attitude, talent, and infrastructure. In a typical bid situation, the agency/client must locate 3 or more studios that can do the job at hand. Contrary to what many photographers think, this process isn't done to just select the lowest bid. It is to keep things relative to one another. In most cases, the photographer includes an approach treatment with the bid indicating their creative take on the project. The ad agency then submits the 3 bids, and makes the recommendation to the advertiser .... which often is not the lowest bid, but the one that best accomplishes the creative marketing intent in relationship to the bottom line bid.

Since larger advertisers, like Unilever for example, normally don't keep pace with market developments in the photographic world, many employ third-party watch-dogs to do that for them. These are staffed with pretty savvy people who review the submitted bids and ask questions, or suggest cost saving alternatives ... often in a pre-production meeting before the final recommendation is forwarded to the client. Unknown to many photographers, the Art Director/CD on the job often fights for the use of their choice to do the job, so his ideas and vision for the project can be fulfilled.

Technical aspects:

When I said the H camera is the most ubiquitous camera in the fashion world, I actually could have said that for all commercial photographic areas. The number one unit is a H1/H2 with a Phase One H mount back ... which is why Hasselblad now offers the H4X open platform systems camera as a replacement for those aging cameras.

Sorry, but I'll disagree that using a system that requires a sync cord to operate is anywhere as reliable as an integrated system. In my direct experience, that part becomes the weakest link in the shooting chain of events ...except for maybe the tether cord when shooting to a computer. None of the modern camera systems requires that, which is a hint.

Same disagreement regarding taking a back off camera to rotate it ... the internet is loaded with those complaining about the dust issue, and having to send their camera in for scratched IR filters ... stuff happens. If that hasn't been your experience, I'd say you are not only very careful, you are very lucky.

TRUE, larger MFD capture is NOT needed for all commercial work these days, but it is desirable/required for clients with a diverse application of images and/or severe cropping of details. One can use almost any systems camera to do work exclusively for internet marketing, and even many smaller print applications. However, these days many clients use images for a pretty wide spread of applications.

For example, an image may be used for the client's website, a magazine ad, brochures and a trade show booth. Even the magazine ad can be a headache when the media selections range from half page digest, to a spread in a slick trade tabloid sized publication ... each with its own crop ratios and bleed requirements requiring a LOT of extra background ...thus reducing the actual subject matter size to accommodate such a variety. This has been one of my biggest pet peeves with photographers who don't understand this and shoot to tight causing the need for expensive retouching.

I shot a job for a client that used the images on their website, in their catalog, AND printed 8' wall sized mounted prints for their trade-show both where the viewers would be right on top of the image. For another industrial client, I shot their R&D and Manufacturing facilities plus portraits of their executives ... for the internet, power-point presentations, leave-behind brochures and for large prints for their corporate HQs lobby. In both cases MFD was not only desirable, it was a necessity.

Moiré IS an issue with many photographic subjects, especially anything including fabrics or fine detail which creates spatial vibrations when translated to web sized views, CMYK print using various crops, and other applications. I currently have a job in house shooting fabric for GM catalog presentation of seating materials, a job I do each year. Boring work, but it pays the bills. I cannot use a 35mm DSLR for this work, I tried. Eventually, I used a 39 meg Multi-shot that eliminates moiré and produces more faithful colors ... and not until the H4D/60 could I avoid using the Multi-Shot for these projects. I have to shoot 12" pieces of the fabric for the client, who then selects the best 2" square and blows it up to show the pattern. I also shoot GM chrome wheels and found the dynamic range of MFD to be a God sent for such work.

-Marc
 
For the H4Ds, which are the go to lenses for environmental portraiture and short-distance landscapes/townscapes? There's a Hass promo announced here today to acquire a second lens at 50% of the retail price, so seems sensible to start with 2 optics.

I could get there with serious selling, but in addition to V kit, I'd need to walk away from film completely which means selling my Imacon. That's a one way street.

The V adapter looks interesting, but I've noted a few photographers who've tried to adapt V lenses, but given up and transferred to H completely.

Any reason not to settle for the H4D-31 ??

Please recommend.

My recommendation regarding 2 lenses for those applications would be the HC50-II and HC100/2.2. While the HCD35-90 zoom is a killer optic and would fit that bill perfectly, I personally found the lens to be too big/cumbersome and a bit slow in maximum aperture for the way I like to work. You may feel differently. Plus, if you get a 31 or 40 back, there is a 1/3X crop factor to consider. So a 50mm is actually a 65 FOV. The other possibility is the HCD28mm which is not easy to find used ... so may be a good choice for the 1/2 off promo. With the crop factor in mind, this may be the better wide choice.

I recently sold my 35-90 and secured the new HC50-II which is a truly great improvement over the previous 50. It is an expensive lens, so if it is included in the 1/2 off promo, I'd get that IF it is wide enough for you with a 31 back.

Regarding the H4D/31 verses the H4D/40. Both are terrific and the difference between 31 and 40 megs isn't great enough on its own to warrant the price difference.

The main difference is that the 40 is a newer sensor design, and across the board provides about a 1 stop performance improvement as you move up the ISO ladder .... where, for example, ISO 1600 with the 40meg looks like ISO 800 on the 31 meg back.

In addition the physical hardware of the H4D/40 back contained the necessary components for the double res LCD, one click 100% focus check and spirit level. These were just enabled by a firmware update for the H4D/40 and H4D/50 ... they were already included on the H4D/60. According to Hasselblad, these features are not possible for the 31 and 39 meg backs because the innovations came after they were in production.

-Marc
 
If a wide-angle is needed, I would tend to go with the HC 28mm, especially as the 31 and 40 backs have a serious crop-factor issue.
 
This is a most interesting thread and very useful for a new Hass user like myself.

Why did I move up to MF? Firstly, looking back over my digital and film captures, again and again I was drawn to the more natural look of film. Secondly, much as I like my digital gear (Leica) I am slowly being priced out of the system by the eye-watering pricing. I just don't believe it offers value for money anymore unless you are a hard-working pro (which I am not). In comparison I have now equipped myself with a SWC, 500CM and three additional lenses for about the price of a new Leica 50-lux (if you can obtain one).

I'm fortunate that my subject of choice is nearly always static, e.g. landscapes, or urban landscapes. I can set up my tripod wait for the moment and shoot. I can see the limitations of both film and this system were I to try and do street shooting, or fashion. Then I can see how a modern digital system would be far more realistic.

I am disappointed to learn through this thread that Hass backs have a crop factor. To have to spend up to the top price to keep my wide-angles means that unless I do finally turn pro and unless I can obtain top whack for fine art landscape prints, this could never be economic for me. The beauty of the SWC, for example, is the wide angle. It would be a shame (a crime?) to crop that. Similarly, I am really enjoying (actually amazed by) the results of the 50/4 I am using.

Reading this thread I think I have convinced myself that a way forward for me is to invest in a top end scanner (I am currently using a V700 which is good but not good enough) or build into the cost of my photography regular visits to a studio where I can rent an immacon for a couple of hours.

Anyway, thanks again for all the interesting posts in this thread. Very helpful indeed.

LouisB
 
With the Cfv 39 & 50 the crop factor is only 1.1x. It's not a square format but your wides are still wide. The 38 becomes a 41.8mm. It hasnt been a problem for me plus you get a little e tra reach on the long end.
 
A considerable concern for many amateurs is the cost of the CFV backs - the CFV 50 at almost $20K costs as much as a H4D-40 with lens.....
It would be nice if a CFV 22 would be available for about $7K, like the Leaf Aptus, which has a similar crop-factor as the larger CFV's.
Most of us don't need such high density pixel machines...just my 2¢
 
Very true, but it's so hard to like the plastic H4D-40.
It's a lot of money and I am still considering if it's worth it,
on the other hand so many people drive a Mercedez just to go to the supermarket.
The CFV back ads a lot to the comfort of he V series, I keep on telling myself.
 
Make no error - if I could afford it - I would have gone for a CFV - it is a superb tool - simple to use - the quality is incredible (when you nail the focus) and I love my V system.... however, as you'll see I made the change to a H3D.
Yes, it is a big change - but no more than when we transitioned from Nikon FM2 etc to the F90 to the D700...
I'm quite excited by my new toy - and am very glad that thanks to the CF adapter I can use my old CF lenses (until they get replaced by HC's).
 
My Imacon Ixpress 528C digital back only has a 1.1 crop and 22MP, although in 16x multishot mode the files are strangely enough 528MB.

Whilst I am using the back on a H1, I have the adapter to allow it to be converted to use on a V system body and as such allows it to be attached in either vertical or horizontal mode.

They can be picked up for circa £2-3000 and whilst quite old technology still have a use for us non-millionaires.
 
With the Cfv 39 & 50 the crop factor is only 1.1x. It's not a square format but your wides are still wide. The 38 becomes a 41.8mm. It hasnt been a problem for me plus you get a little e tra reach on the long end.

Is that the case with the CV-39? I thought it was 1.33? Can anyone point me to the specification which states exactly what the crop factors are?

A 1.1 crop factor would put me back into lusting for a CFV-39 (unfortunately).

People have referred to issues with focussing with a CFV-39 but are there any reasons why you wouldn't zone/hyperfocal focus with a digital back when using it for landscape work?

LouisB
 
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