carl_sanders
Member
Taras,
good point!
good point!
Medium Format Forum
Register a free account now!
If you are registered, you get access to the members only section, can participate in the buy & sell second hand forum and last but not least you can reserve your preferred username before someone else takes it.
CFV 15 x Lens effect Is it really a problem
- Thread starter carl_sanders
- Start date
carl_sanders
Member
Kieth,
"Sadly the V series without a *viable* digital option is dead in the water."
Tell that to the team of photographers in London who are earning a fortune with their Hasselblads and three year old 16MP digital backs doing pack shots and c&aigns for Advertising and Design clients. CFV backs are part of the solution which work exceptioinally well for this type of work.
There will always be photographers who will 'get away' with using the different formats, I recall some years ago that 5 x 4 cameras were dead in the water, resulting in photographers selling them quickly off, only to be revived by the use of digital back converters. I could not understand why these studio cameras were being dumped like this as they are still needed for camera movements in studio.
The V system can also take the other digital backs so the argument is not seen.
"Sadly the V series without a *viable* digital option is dead in the water."
Tell that to the team of photographers in London who are earning a fortune with their Hasselblads and three year old 16MP digital backs doing pack shots and c&aigns for Advertising and Design clients. CFV backs are part of the solution which work exceptioinally well for this type of work.
There will always be photographers who will 'get away' with using the different formats, I recall some years ago that 5 x 4 cameras were dead in the water, resulting in photographers selling them quickly off, only to be revived by the use of digital back converters. I could not understand why these studio cameras were being dumped like this as they are still needed for camera movements in studio.
The V system can also take the other digital backs so the argument is not seen.
carl_sanders
Member
photo_franc
Member
And here is where we come back to the bit depth debate.
People seem to think that a Canon or Nikon DSLR will give them the same image quality as a medium format, It won't. You then here the argument that it's good enough, For who?. Most Medium Format lenses alone have higher resolving power than most 35mm lens. 35mm pixels are smaller than Medium Format pixels and the smaller the pixel the more susceptible to noise it is. Trying to compare 35mm digital to MF digital is like comparing SLR digital to point and shoot digital. This is the old apples to oranges comparison.
Keith, Closely study the differences of bit depth and pixel size between medium format digital and 35mm digital and you will see there's a big difference. Highlight and shadow detail are big ones. Like I said a few posts ago, these are all tools used to improve our craft, the more choices you have, the easier it is to create an image from the vision.
For me I have an older Kodak 16MP back on the V system and am now looking at the CFV for greater bit depth. I also plan to invest in a 22MP back to get a crop factor of 1.1 on my V lenses. I also shoot the New Fuji S5Pro and love it because of it's 65% larger pixel and 14bit x2 color. In this case Size is everything
Just droppin another nickel,
Franc
People seem to think that a Canon or Nikon DSLR will give them the same image quality as a medium format, It won't. You then here the argument that it's good enough, For who?. Most Medium Format lenses alone have higher resolving power than most 35mm lens. 35mm pixels are smaller than Medium Format pixels and the smaller the pixel the more susceptible to noise it is. Trying to compare 35mm digital to MF digital is like comparing SLR digital to point and shoot digital. This is the old apples to oranges comparison.
Keith, Closely study the differences of bit depth and pixel size between medium format digital and 35mm digital and you will see there's a big difference. Highlight and shadow detail are big ones. Like I said a few posts ago, these are all tools used to improve our craft, the more choices you have, the easier it is to create an image from the vision.
For me I have an older Kodak 16MP back on the V system and am now looking at the CFV for greater bit depth. I also plan to invest in a 22MP back to get a crop factor of 1.1 on my V lenses. I also shoot the New Fuji S5Pro and love it because of it's 65% larger pixel and 14bit x2 color. In this case Size is everything
Just droppin another nickel,
Franc
Franc, What's your opinion on the new sp5 pro, I have the fuji s3pr, didn't sound like it would be much of an upgrade, still the same file size isn't it? I also have the CFV back, which I'm pleased with, the 1.5 crop factor bugs me a fair bit though and would like a 22mp back to accompany the v system.
keith_laban
Member
Carl, probably the most useful of the lists that I contribute to consists of some 300+ professional photographers. Many of these photographers used to use the V series and large format cameras, but now almost to a man they have sold their Hasselblads and Linhofs and have invested in Canon and Nikon. Those who are using digital backs are doing so in combination with the H series and Mamiya 6x45 based systems, I simply cannot recall any of these photographers who are still using the V series. It's no coincidence that Hasselblad are expanding the H system whilst contracting the V system. This is what I'd call "dead in the water".
Franc, believe me I'm not for a moment suggesting that the Canon and Nikon DSLRs are in any way as accomplished as the digital backs, far from it!
Franc, believe me I'm not for a moment suggesting that the Canon and Nikon DSLRs are in any way as accomplished as the digital backs, far from it!
keith_laban
Member
"The image quality of digital cameras based on 35 mm designs is in no way comparable to the quality that can be obtained with MF cameras whatever the recordable medium is."
Agreed.
"It shows that in many cases digital media also gave way to systems with less quality."
Also agreed.
Agreed.
"It shows that in many cases digital media also gave way to systems with less quality."
Also agreed.
Keith, like you I am a member of forum made up of professional photographers from all over the world ( I mostly lurk and learn : -) This particular one is dedicated to Hasselblad/Imacon
digital solutions and from what I can tell is peopled by those at the top of the photographic food chain.
As you say, a vast majority have migrated to 645 systems, Mamiya or Hasselblad. Most once used the V system. For most, the type of work they do eliminates a 35mm type DSLR.
The move to 645 is not hard to understand. Sensor technology drove that, not the camera companies. Since Hasselblad was the last in, they had the advantage of zero base design without having to adapt older technology. The result has been an integrated system between lens, finder, camera and back. To do this with the V cameras wasn't practical nor desirable.
So, in the end, I don't understand what point you are making.
If circumstances dictate a tool with a certain abilities, get that tool. If I need to drive a thousand nails an hour, I get a power nail gun, but I don't lament the loss of my favorite hammer ... which is then dead in the water ... unless I like to contemplate the zen of nail driving and want to do it manually : -)
If someone wants to use their beloved V cameras, and wants wide angle ability, get a bigger back than the CFV. There are more 645 type backs on the market than square ones.
digital solutions and from what I can tell is peopled by those at the top of the photographic food chain.
As you say, a vast majority have migrated to 645 systems, Mamiya or Hasselblad. Most once used the V system. For most, the type of work they do eliminates a 35mm type DSLR.
The move to 645 is not hard to understand. Sensor technology drove that, not the camera companies. Since Hasselblad was the last in, they had the advantage of zero base design without having to adapt older technology. The result has been an integrated system between lens, finder, camera and back. To do this with the V cameras wasn't practical nor desirable.
So, in the end, I don't understand what point you are making.
If circumstances dictate a tool with a certain abilities, get that tool. If I need to drive a thousand nails an hour, I get a power nail gun, but I don't lament the loss of my favorite hammer ... which is then dead in the water ... unless I like to contemplate the zen of nail driving and want to do it manually : -)
If someone wants to use their beloved V cameras, and wants wide angle ability, get a bigger back than the CFV. There are more 645 type backs on the market than square ones.
keith_laban
Member
"...and from what I can tell is peopled by those at the top of the photographic food chain"
"If someone wants to use their beloved V cameras, and wants wide angle ability, get a bigger back than the CFV. There are more 645 type backs on the market than square ones"
Exactly my point Marc, a large proportion of Hasselblad's traditional market is now isolated and left without a viable upgrade path. Hasselblad are now providing viable digital solutions for only a very limited market and the rest have voted with their feet and migrated to Canon or Nikon. The move to 645 digital is perfectly understandable but has sidelined the majority of the former Hasselblad users.
"If someone wants to use their beloved V cameras, and wants wide angle ability, get a bigger back than the CFV. There are more 645 type backs on the market than square ones"
Exactly my point Marc, a large proportion of Hasselblad's traditional market is now isolated and left without a viable upgrade path. Hasselblad are now providing viable digital solutions for only a very limited market and the rest have voted with their feet and migrated to Canon or Nikon. The move to 645 digital is perfectly understandable but has sidelined the majority of the former Hasselblad users.
I'm not sure that putting a 39 meg back on a V camera isn't an upgrade path Keith.
What people seem to be voting on is the camera system itself ... no viable path to a modern integrated digital platform ... like the Hy6 is attempting to be ... which may, or may not, find favor. But the Hy6 is at least building on the Rollie platform, which already had AF abilities, a rotating back mechanism, and a fair amount of automation ... and now will have a whole new series of AF Schneider lenses as well as re-engineered digital integration. Not an inexpensive option to be sure ... nor does it offer any more sensor coverage than a 503CW with a 645 back mounted.
I also think migrating to cameras like those from Canon and Nikon suggest the level of need was surpassed by MF digital, and those going C or N do not need any more ... or don't want to pay any more.
None of these big digital solutions are for the financially faint of heart.
What people seem to be voting on is the camera system itself ... no viable path to a modern integrated digital platform ... like the Hy6 is attempting to be ... which may, or may not, find favor. But the Hy6 is at least building on the Rollie platform, which already had AF abilities, a rotating back mechanism, and a fair amount of automation ... and now will have a whole new series of AF Schneider lenses as well as re-engineered digital integration. Not an inexpensive option to be sure ... nor does it offer any more sensor coverage than a 503CW with a 645 back mounted.
I also think migrating to cameras like those from Canon and Nikon suggest the level of need was surpassed by MF digital, and those going C or N do not need any more ... or don't want to pay any more.
None of these big digital solutions are for the financially faint of heart.
keith_laban
Member
"I'm not sure that putting a 39 meg back on a V camera isn't an upgrade path Keith"
Agreed, an impressive upgrade path, but viable? Well perhaps for a few.
Agreed, an impressive upgrade path, but viable? Well perhaps for a few.
Ahh, so you are pissed at the digital back makers and the high prices for a big enough sensor, and not at the camera maker. That seems the heart of the matter.
Hasselblad may have Imacon, but Imacon doesn't make the sensors which are were the costs are. All the backs are expensive across the board.
Heck, even look at Canon. $8,000. for what used to cost $1,500 in a film version?
high resolution Digital is mondo expensive, that's a fact.
Hasselblad may have Imacon, but Imacon doesn't make the sensors which are were the costs are. All the backs are expensive across the board.
Heck, even look at Canon. $8,000. for what used to cost $1,500 in a film version?
high resolution Digital is mondo expensive, that's a fact.
keith_laban
Member
Marc, God forbid that anyone be pissed with Hasselblad or Imacon when you're about ;-)
Not defending them in any way Keith. I have an Leaf Aptus back and a Mamiya RZ & 645AFD-II, and it's all exactly the same.
It's just that I don't get your point at all ... but then again, I guess I don't really need to either.
I do get the feeling a lot of folks that have been around photography for awhile, simply do NOT like what's happening, and express as if it were the camera company's fault ... so, once again, the camera companies nor the digital back manufacturers make the sensors. Kodak and Dalsa do.
Oh, BTW, There are 645 sized sensor digital backs for V cameras available for about the same money as a CFV. But don't let facts get in the way of grousing : -)
It's just that I don't get your point at all ... but then again, I guess I don't really need to either.
I do get the feeling a lot of folks that have been around photography for awhile, simply do NOT like what's happening, and express as if it were the camera company's fault ... so, once again, the camera companies nor the digital back manufacturers make the sensors. Kodak and Dalsa do.
Oh, BTW, There are 645 sized sensor digital backs for V cameras available for about the same money as a CFV. But don't let facts get in the way of grousing : -)
photo_franc
Member
Hi Paul,
I've been shoot with it since mid February and found a huge difference. First the build quality is fantastic, I had a Kodak 760 before I bought the S3 and was a bit disappointed in the Pro quality of the S3 but the S5 makes up for that. Next the Image processor makes a big difference, It's faster and the images right out of the camera are better and require less post work. The Film simulation modes on the S5 are even better as well. I shoot in wide dynamic range all the time because I find it gives better highlight and shadow details. At first I thought the same as you, same sensor, same image quality but no, there is a definite improvement. That the reason I want to up-grade my Kodak back to the CFV. Although the sensor is the same it's the other hardware and firmware improvements that make a diference. Now if only Hasselblad would try the Fuji sensor in the next 22MP version of the CFV.
Franc
I've been shoot with it since mid February and found a huge difference. First the build quality is fantastic, I had a Kodak 760 before I bought the S3 and was a bit disappointed in the Pro quality of the S3 but the S5 makes up for that. Next the Image processor makes a big difference, It's faster and the images right out of the camera are better and require less post work. The Film simulation modes on the S5 are even better as well. I shoot in wide dynamic range all the time because I find it gives better highlight and shadow details. At first I thought the same as you, same sensor, same image quality but no, there is a definite improvement. That the reason I want to up-grade my Kodak back to the CFV. Although the sensor is the same it's the other hardware and firmware improvements that make a diference. Now if only Hasselblad would try the Fuji sensor in the next 22MP version of the CFV.
Franc
keith_laban
Member
"I do get the feeling a lot of folks that have been around photography for awhile, simply do NOT like what's happening"
Ha, speak for yourself Marc, I LOVE what's happening, my entire workflow other than capture is digital and I really look forward to completing the circle. My only wish is that I could carry on using a Hasselblad system rather than going for the Horseman SW-D 11 Pro or similar which does offer true wide angle capability with a 16MP back. You see it's not just the sensor manufacturers at fault!
"Oh, BTW, There are 645 sized sensor digital backs for V cameras available for about the same money as a CFV. But don't let facts get in the way of grousing"
How many times do I have to say it, a 22MP back cropped square *is* a 16MP back; sorry, is that grousing?
Ha, speak for yourself Marc, I LOVE what's happening, my entire workflow other than capture is digital and I really look forward to completing the circle. My only wish is that I could carry on using a Hasselblad system rather than going for the Horseman SW-D 11 Pro or similar which does offer true wide angle capability with a 16MP back. You see it's not just the sensor manufacturers at fault!
"Oh, BTW, There are 645 sized sensor digital backs for V cameras available for about the same money as a CFV. But don't let facts get in the way of grousing"
How many times do I have to say it, a 22MP back cropped square *is* a 16MP back; sorry, is that grousing?
G'Day All:
This entire discussion about analog/digital/square/not-so-square reminds me of my feelings as a young child when I learnt that the coal-fired steam trains would stop coming through my town, and would be replaced by oil fired Garretts (I think they were called). Later, there were relatively quiet, faster, stronger diesels, and then the line was electrified for some of the distance to the 'big city'. I used to love those old steam trains puffing and chuffing along. But, as a passenger, I found the diesel had no cinders flying back to get in my eyes, and the 8 hours took 5 hours. Then, the electric trains, were quicker still and air-conditioned.
I eventually came to realise that commercially, modernization made sense. But, even now, the train hobbyists can fire up their coal-fired trains for weekend jaunts - even photo ops for romantics like me.
So, it seems, it's the same with us all in our little Hasselblad world. Commercially, we need the quickest, best, most powerful. And the 'little boy or little girl' in most of us needs steam driven some times. Some of us are just happy to have steam. So be it. To each his own.
The diesel engineers want to drive those old steam trains just once, and the hobbyists would love to get into that new air conditioned cabin. They are all connected by their love of locomotion. There's room for all.
That's my thought for the day. Sorry for waxing philosophical!! I've got to go now ... and set up my 'OO/HO' gauge.
Cheers,
Colin
This entire discussion about analog/digital/square/not-so-square reminds me of my feelings as a young child when I learnt that the coal-fired steam trains would stop coming through my town, and would be replaced by oil fired Garretts (I think they were called). Later, there were relatively quiet, faster, stronger diesels, and then the line was electrified for some of the distance to the 'big city'. I used to love those old steam trains puffing and chuffing along. But, as a passenger, I found the diesel had no cinders flying back to get in my eyes, and the 8 hours took 5 hours. Then, the electric trains, were quicker still and air-conditioned.
I eventually came to realise that commercially, modernization made sense. But, even now, the train hobbyists can fire up their coal-fired trains for weekend jaunts - even photo ops for romantics like me.
So, it seems, it's the same with us all in our little Hasselblad world. Commercially, we need the quickest, best, most powerful. And the 'little boy or little girl' in most of us needs steam driven some times. Some of us are just happy to have steam. So be it. To each his own.
The diesel engineers want to drive those old steam trains just once, and the hobbyists would love to get into that new air conditioned cabin. They are all connected by their love of locomotion. There's room for all.
That's my thought for the day. Sorry for waxing philosophical!! I've got to go now ... and set up my 'OO/HO' gauge.
Cheers,
Colin
I've got to go now ... and set up my 'OO/HO' gauge. >
Colin:
That is great story.
And, thanks for the best laugh I've had in days!
I like steam too! I understand when the load is exceptionally heavy they still use an old steam engine to make the grade somewhere in West Virginia hauling the coal out.
Regards:
Gilbert
Colin:
That is great story.
And, thanks for the best laugh I've had in days!
I like steam too! I understand when the load is exceptionally heavy they still use an old steam engine to make the grade somewhere in West Virginia hauling the coal out.
Regards:
Gilbert