Phase One just announced their P65+ 60 megapixel camera. Apparently it's a full frame 645 back that can shoot at 1 FPS. It only costs $39,990. So now our Hasselblad V-series cameras can have a higher MP count than the Hasselblad H-series. Awesome.
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60MP for your V-series?
- Thread starter nathantw2
- Start date
How right you are. That's exactly why I posted it in the Hasselblad V forum.
I was looking at the "technical overview" on the website and if only they can add just a few more mm to the short end of the P65 sensor and we'd have a basically a full-frame 6x6 camera. Will Gorilla brand glue help put the sensor together?
blowupster
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That's a good new !
A 4.5x6cm back cann be put in H serie "anyway".
4 years ago I considered that more than 20Mpix for 24x36mm was a no sens as 5Mpix for phonecamra or 12Mpix for apn. So more than 80Mpix for 56x56mm was the limite.
I based my consideration on optical limites and difraction with "normal" oppertures.
Ok now we are beyond. Perhaps more pixels will hlep to create...softer pictures: no need to get unatural accentuation to get more details and avoid moiré.
BTW now I am like a cow again, watching the passing high speed train. The prize is realy out of my budget.
I hopped that 9micron was the limite for pixel size, so with time we get wider sensor for more pixels.
A "modest" 20mpix for 4.5x4.5 at 10'000$ should have been a killing call... in 2009
Interesting years for MF cameras.
Hum the 40mm CFE-IF and the 100mm 3.5 on 60Mpix 4.5x6 sensor....
A 4.5x6cm back cann be put in H serie "anyway".
4 years ago I considered that more than 20Mpix for 24x36mm was a no sens as 5Mpix for phonecamra or 12Mpix for apn. So more than 80Mpix for 56x56mm was the limite.
I based my consideration on optical limites and difraction with "normal" oppertures.
Ok now we are beyond. Perhaps more pixels will hlep to create...softer pictures: no need to get unatural accentuation to get more details and avoid moiré.
BTW now I am like a cow again, watching the passing high speed train. The prize is realy out of my budget.
I hopped that 9micron was the limite for pixel size, so with time we get wider sensor for more pixels.
A "modest" 20mpix for 4.5x4.5 at 10'000$ should have been a killing call... in 2009
Interesting years for MF cameras.
Hum the 40mm CFE-IF and the 100mm 3.5 on 60Mpix 4.5x6 sensor....
polypal
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Hi Nathan,
First of all I did not edit your post just hit the wrong button. Sorry!
Could well be Gorilla glue gives us the last few millimeters to make a full frame sensor.
For those at Hasselblad that do not know what full frame is: 56x56 mm for 6x6 or 56x41 mm for 6x4.5
It was annoying to read Hasselblad announces a full frame sensor for 645 when in fact full frame refers to a cropped viewer.
That is cheating.
Paul
blowupster
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A new CFV-645 in 2009 ?
40x54mm is close to 41x56mm I consider it as Full Frame.
Like the new "Asph." lenses for Leica M8, new "Apo-IF" Zeiss lenses should boost the sale of digital V.
I never understood why the old very good 80mm 2.8 was never replaced by an excellent up to date apo lens.
New tech product to make distance from the huge second hand market.
40x54mm is close to 41x56mm I consider it as Full Frame.
Like the new "Asph." lenses for Leica M8, new "Apo-IF" Zeiss lenses should boost the sale of digital V.
I never understood why the old very good 80mm 2.8 was never replaced by an excellent up to date apo lens.
New tech product to make distance from the huge second hand market.
polypal
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No maker of industrial products will invest in a line of products they consider as obsolete.
The last redeigned lens for the V system will be the 40 IF.
blowupster
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Indeed the FLE 40mm non-IF was not bad at all and the sale of new 40mm for Hasselblad is more confidential than 80mm.
Hi Paul,
I actually edited my message, so no worries.
That was my sentiment exactly when I read that the Hasselblad was saying their sensor was full frame. I just figured that the H-series was built with a smaller sensor in mind, thus it being relative, was full frame in their eyes.
Then the Phase One P65+ came out and it showed that 6x4.5 was truly getting closer. It really is too bad that these camera backs cost so much (of course that's relative too since they're made for professionals that are used to high prices). I'd love to get one, but life being what it is, I need to spend the money elsewhere, like on gas for my vehicle.
vandevantersh
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I suspect that the real "sticker shock" would be if we knew what Dalsa and Kodak were charging for sensors being sold to the military/CIA, etc.
Steve
Steve
Phase One says that with this new sensor, a 35mm lens will be like a 36mm. Pretty close for me to call it real full frame. Besides, in my book a 645 V film frame is only 41.5X55mm. Not 56mm
I'm delighted (tough I can't afford it), that P1 is releasing this back for the V system.
The more time it happens, the less I understand why Hasselblad is been neglecting the V system. with the thous and thous of V systems around the world, it beats me why Hasselblad can't see it. It's like parenting the world's favorite child just to let someone else support and nourish after his prime time.
Denaturalized? - I don't know. But we all pay in this life.
Eduardo
I'm delighted (tough I can't afford it), that P1 is releasing this back for the V system.
The more time it happens, the less I understand why Hasselblad is been neglecting the V system. with the thous and thous of V systems around the world, it beats me why Hasselblad can't see it. It's like parenting the world's favorite child just to let someone else support and nourish after his prime time.
Denaturalized? - I don't know. But we all pay in this life.
Eduardo
blowupster
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+1
However I can understand that H serie was necessary to pass these digital years. Investing tone of $ these last years in V serie should be not a good idea too.
With the arrival of 645 digital back (and wider ?), will justify the renew of V serie.
One regret is that X-pan camera has nevers seen a "X-2" brother with the 36x36mm Kodak sensor. To keep the clever idea of the X-pan: a mooving frames and sensor to help stitching or perspective corrections ! SInce I sold my X-pan, the most used camera is my Leica M8.
BTW the kind of pictures where 50Mpix is used, perhaps does not need one point centred AF mode.
michaelhcothran
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This is my opinion -
Hasselblad needed the H system. They needed a modern electronic camera which could compete now and tomorrow with other state-of-the-art cameras. The V system wasn't it. They needed to start from ground up.
I don't even disagree with the inevitible demise of the V system. I believe Hasselblad/Zeiss painted themselves into a corner by not only producing quality equipment that would last the test of time, but by also producing non-obsolescent equipment, so that over many decades, the same parts could be interchanged, keeping the system alive.
However, I do find it disheartening that the powers-to-be at Hasselblad can't see that the world is still full of V system users, and could remain that way indefinitely. It is not that necessary to keep producing new bodies and lenses, since there are so many used ones on the market now adversely competing with any new stock. But it does make sense for Hasselblad and other companies to manufacture NEW products for the V system, ie, larger and more affordable square digital backs. And while even the V system was never considered inexpensive, it was certainly more inline costwise with other camera systems than $40,000 digital backs.
Mamiya has done well with their $7000 22mpx back and $10,000 645AFD kit. And that's a good start in the right direction. But if Hasselblad expects anyone other than the wealthiest media conglomerants to buy their wares, something has to give in the price structure.
Hasselblad needed the H system. They needed a modern electronic camera which could compete now and tomorrow with other state-of-the-art cameras. The V system wasn't it. They needed to start from ground up.
I don't even disagree with the inevitible demise of the V system. I believe Hasselblad/Zeiss painted themselves into a corner by not only producing quality equipment that would last the test of time, but by also producing non-obsolescent equipment, so that over many decades, the same parts could be interchanged, keeping the system alive.
However, I do find it disheartening that the powers-to-be at Hasselblad can't see that the world is still full of V system users, and could remain that way indefinitely. It is not that necessary to keep producing new bodies and lenses, since there are so many used ones on the market now adversely competing with any new stock. But it does make sense for Hasselblad and other companies to manufacture NEW products for the V system, ie, larger and more affordable square digital backs. And while even the V system was never considered inexpensive, it was certainly more inline costwise with other camera systems than $40,000 digital backs.
Mamiya has done well with their $7000 22mpx back and $10,000 645AFD kit. And that's a good start in the right direction. But if Hasselblad expects anyone other than the wealthiest media conglomerants to buy their wares, something has to give in the price structure.
polypal
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At the time Hasselblad developped the H series the company was writing results in red.
Turnover of V series cameras and lenses was slow and small.
The legendary quality of these products was literally Hasselblads main problem.
Why buy expensive new V series bodies and lenses when so many excellent used ones are available.
Only those who used their equipment to shoot more than 5-10 rolls of film a day were interested to buy new.
The strong demand for 645 format induced by developments in the digital domain dictated a new camera
was needed with AF, light metering and built in winder.
The H series is the reason whe can still buy new V series bodies lenses and film backs.
I too regret the poorly developed sense and respect from current management for the V series.
These cameras build a legendary world wide reputation that gives the H series
that extra premium that results in sales despite a stiff price.
Paul
Turnover of V series cameras and lenses was slow and small.
The legendary quality of these products was literally Hasselblads main problem.
Why buy expensive new V series bodies and lenses when so many excellent used ones are available.
Only those who used their equipment to shoot more than 5-10 rolls of film a day were interested to buy new.
The strong demand for 645 format induced by developments in the digital domain dictated a new camera
was needed with AF, light metering and built in winder.
The H series is the reason whe can still buy new V series bodies lenses and film backs.
I too regret the poorly developed sense and respect from current management for the V series.
These cameras build a legendary world wide reputation that gives the H series
that extra premium that results in sales despite a stiff price.
Paul
I could not say it better Paul.
Just one more thing. The Rollei, Hasselblad's arch-enemy, evolved to be the super hi-tec camera of the 21 century, while the V is reduced to almost junk. We still have to se if it will become a commercial success, but imho, the Hy6/Afi is the new leader of the pack. If I had the monies, that'd be my camera system now. I love waist level shooting a la V. I don't need any super fast or auto features, for that, my Canons are unbeatable.
Let the V survive for those that supported it and enjoyed photography at its best during the last 60 years, because many, are still pretty much alive, and like great music, is been discovered by some younger ones.
Eduardo
Just one more thing. The Rollei, Hasselblad's arch-enemy, evolved to be the super hi-tec camera of the 21 century, while the V is reduced to almost junk. We still have to se if it will become a commercial success, but imho, the Hy6/Afi is the new leader of the pack. If I had the monies, that'd be my camera system now. I love waist level shooting a la V. I don't need any super fast or auto features, for that, my Canons are unbeatable.
Let the V survive for those that supported it and enjoyed photography at its best during the last 60 years, because many, are still pretty much alive, and like great music, is been discovered by some younger ones.
Eduardo
A few thoughts:
Phase announced the P65+ in July, but is a product that will not be available until the end of the year. If it is delivered then as they say, it will be the first time they have met their own published deadline that I can recall. The sensor will be an exclusive for Phase One, and is made by Dalsa not Kodak.
Hasselblad has also announced that a true full 645 frame back is coming (NOT the 50 meg., 1.1X back recently announced), but specifics won't be available until Photokina. It's suppose to be available first half of next year. Details to come.
RE: a large square sensor for the V cameras:
AGAIN, the camera and back makers do not make the sensors ... they can only use what is produced by the sensor companies ... or work with a sensor manufacturer like Phase One supposedly did for the P65+... with a resulting price in the stratosphere.
As an example of the back makers can only sell what the sensor makers provide: you will see the end of the 22 meg CF back and H3D-II/22 because Kodak has ended production of that sensor. Bye-bye 9 micron 645 from Hasselblad, at least from Kodak.
A large square sensor will be expensive. Anyone that could afford the price tag, could also afford a Hy6 system for a mere 50K more. That hypothetical system combo will approach $100,000. ... for what?
Phase announced the P65+ in July, but is a product that will not be available until the end of the year. If it is delivered then as they say, it will be the first time they have met their own published deadline that I can recall. The sensor will be an exclusive for Phase One, and is made by Dalsa not Kodak.
Hasselblad has also announced that a true full 645 frame back is coming (NOT the 50 meg., 1.1X back recently announced), but specifics won't be available until Photokina. It's suppose to be available first half of next year. Details to come.
RE: a large square sensor for the V cameras:
AGAIN, the camera and back makers do not make the sensors ... they can only use what is produced by the sensor companies ... or work with a sensor manufacturer like Phase One supposedly did for the P65+... with a resulting price in the stratosphere.
As an example of the back makers can only sell what the sensor makers provide: you will see the end of the 22 meg CF back and H3D-II/22 because Kodak has ended production of that sensor. Bye-bye 9 micron 645 from Hasselblad, at least from Kodak.
A large square sensor will be expensive. Anyone that could afford the price tag, could also afford a Hy6 system for a mere 50K more. That hypothetical system combo will approach $100,000. ... for what?
polypal
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Some more thoughts:
Of course camera and back makers depend on sensor makers for their sensors.
On the other hand they can order larger sensors and ask sensor makers to develop what they want.
That is exactly what happened regarding the first full frame 645 sensor from Phase one.
It is not the technical side of the sensor that sets the limits, it is the economics that dictate what will be available.
Progress is not always determined along the lines of logic.
The first volume produced 12 cylinder car was made when the first energy crisis hit the world over 35 years ago.
That company not only survived but sold many cars with 12 cylinder engines although a smaller engine was available as well.
It paved the path for other car manufacturers in Europe to sell 12 cylinder cars as well.
It seems Phase One has set the pace.
In spite of their optimistic estimates for first delivery of new products the 65 MP sensor is about to become reality.
At the current exchange rate this 40 K back will cost 25.000 euro.
That is exactly the price for a 25 MP Sinar back 7 years ago.
Economics will dictate the sale of this back will start in Europe to be followed by the US.
The 645 format with a full size sensor will be the next professional standard for digital MF photography.
Eventually a large company like CZ may start production of lenses for H series cameras.
The designs are ready: an excellent series of newly developed lenses for the Contax 645 is eagerly waiting for a second chance.
Of course camera and back makers depend on sensor makers for their sensors.
On the other hand they can order larger sensors and ask sensor makers to develop what they want.
That is exactly what happened regarding the first full frame 645 sensor from Phase one.
It is not the technical side of the sensor that sets the limits, it is the economics that dictate what will be available.
Progress is not always determined along the lines of logic.
The first volume produced 12 cylinder car was made when the first energy crisis hit the world over 35 years ago.
That company not only survived but sold many cars with 12 cylinder engines although a smaller engine was available as well.
It paved the path for other car manufacturers in Europe to sell 12 cylinder cars as well.
It seems Phase One has set the pace.
In spite of their optimistic estimates for first delivery of new products the 65 MP sensor is about to become reality.
At the current exchange rate this 40 K back will cost 25.000 euro.
That is exactly the price for a 25 MP Sinar back 7 years ago.
Economics will dictate the sale of this back will start in Europe to be followed by the US.
The 645 format with a full size sensor will be the next professional standard for digital MF photography.
Eventually a large company like CZ may start production of lenses for H series cameras.
The designs are ready: an excellent series of newly developed lenses for the Contax 645 is eagerly waiting for a second chance.