60MP for your V-series?

[fotografz]

Some more thoughts:

Of course camera and back makers depend on sensor makers for their sensors.
On the other hand they can order larger sensors and ask sensor makers to develop what they want.
That is exactly what happened regarding the first full frame 645 sensor from Phase one.
It is not the technical side of the sensor that sets the limits, it is the economics that dictate what will be available.

Progress is not always determined along the lines of logic.
The first volume produced 12 cylinder car was made when the first energy crisis hit the world over 35 years ago.
That company not only survived but sold many cars with 12 cylinder engines although a smaller engine was available as well.
It paved the path for other car manufacturers in Europe to sell 12 cylinder cars as well.

It seems Phase One has set the pace.
In spite of their optimistic estimates for first delivery of new products the 65 MP sensor is about to become reality.
At the current exchange rate this 40 K back will cost 25.000 euro.
That is exactly the price for a 25 MP Sinar back 7 years ago.
Economics will dictate the sale of this back will start in Europe to be followed by the US.

The 645 format with a full size sensor will be the next professional standard for digital MF photography.
Eventually a large company like CZ may start production of lenses for H series cameras.
The designs are ready: an excellent series of newly developed lenses for the Contax 645 is eagerly waiting for a second chance.

Phase has set the pace on paper only. It's a game of marketing one-upmanship I am quite familiar with (I work in advertising). No one is shooting with the P65+ and won't be for some time. However, the Fat Lady at Photokina hasn't sung yet ... which is a few short months away. We haven't heard from Leaf, Sinar or Hasselblad concerning their developments. In fact, that Phase One chose to jump the gun tells me something may be up with the other back makers that forced their hand. I think that is exacly why Hasselblad announced the H3D-II-50 early ... which breaks with their tradition of announcing something and being able to ship it almost immediately.

If the new proprietary 4 channel Kodak technology introduced in the 50 meg H3D-II/50 is utilized in a full 645 sensor, we may see a leap frog in IQ that'll make the P65+ an also ran in less than 6 months ... or not. We don't know because no one has seen anything from any of these backs. Right now it's all talk, and seeing is believing.

I've learned to hold off any pronouncements of superiority until it actually translates into something I can see in prints. And not one of the professional photographers I know is as interested in yet more megs ... nor am I. full 645? Yes, to a degree. Better performance from the cameras and software? Yes. Better high ISO? Yes. Better AF with more AF points? Yes. More megs, No.

My hope is that a full frame 645 back will be offered with larger photo-sites. A 25 to 30 meg 645 with 8.5 Micron pixels is my dream digital back to use with the H camera. And my dream camera right now isn't a vaporware Contax resurrection ... but instead a Focal Plane H camera so I can use all my V lenses including the FE optics or the AF HC glass if I prefer. I am not a fan of the only other focal plane camera still in production and still being improved ... the Mamiya/Phase One. The H camera is so much better in the reality of actual use that it's not even funny. My prior use of the Contax 645 made it a dead man walking after trying the H camera just once. The only other consideration out there IMO is the Hy6 ... but I do not like the Sinar backs and software, nor the Leaf backs which cannot be rotated. Neither system is on my consideration list until the backs improve in terms of opertational aspects.

RE the reality of what you actually get verses a bunch of marketing hype: Here is a sobering comparison of the Phase One P25+ verses the much more expensive P45+ right from the horses mouth:

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

(see the 2nd test)

This lines up perfectly with my experiences using the lowly CFV. An affordable digital solution that keeps on amazing me with it's file quality. Not a solution for those needing wide angle captures, but for almost anything else it's a stunning performer ... it's my go to system for any portrait assignment, and many smaller commercial jobs. The speedy H3D-II/31 for fashion and events, and the H3D-II/39 mostly using the back on a Rollei Xact-II with Digital APO lenses that no MF lens can equal.

Part of a senior portrait session employing the CFV-II on a 503CW using a 100/3.5 CFi @ f/8:

 

[polypal]

This is not about MP count. 40 MP will be quite sufficient for any assignment.
This is about long awaited larger sensors that bring more pixels as a side effect.
I can't even make an estimate how many times the wish for larger sensors was written in this forum.

Hasselblad is not shy of some smooth commercial talk either calling 36,8x49,1 mm a full frame sensor
because it coincides with the viewer size. That is outright cheating!

Seeing is believing. I fully agree on that.
Phase One will have a hell of an image problem when they do not come up with this full size 645 sensor.
They take orders for the new digital back and even supply P45 backs for those who order the new back
to keep them in business till the P65 is available.

 

[fotografz]

This is not about MP count. 40 MP will be quite sufficient for any assignment.
This is about long awaited larger sensors that bring more pixels as a side effect.
I can't even make an estimate how many times the wish for larger sensors was written in this forum.

Hasselblad is not shy of some smooth commercial talk either calling 36,8x49,1 mm a full frame sensor
because it coincides with the viewer size. That is outright cheating!

Seeing is believing. I fully agree on that.
Phase One will have a hell of an image problem when they do not come up with this full size 645 sensor.
They take orders for the new digital back and even supply P45 backs for those who order the new back
to keep them in business till the P65 is available.

Don't get me wrong, Phase One WILL deliver the P65+ ... of that I have no doubt. We'll see if they deliver when they say they will. TBD.

The wish for larger sensors written here repeatly has been for a larger square sensor, not as much for a retangular sensor that's .1X larger. Folks want a bigger square for their 6X6 Hasselblads. I'd like that also. However, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. If it comes it'll probably be for the HY6, and it remains to be seen if it'll even work on a V camera. It would not surprise me if a larger square sensor was an exclusive to a Hy6 mount in order to promote the sale of the Hy6 system.

BTW, the reference to Full Frame has been used by Kodak, Sinar and Phase One in reference to their "near" 645 sensor ... (that's actually a 1.1X crop factor in the case of Hasselblad and Phase One.)

I could care less if it's a cropped factor, the HC28/4 is wider that I use 98% of the time as it is. For those that want the widest possible use of 645 lenses, they'll have that choice soon ... probably from all the back makers in a year or less.

I also applaud Hasselblad for the digital viewfinder because it's more accurate and useful than putting a cheap plastic insert on the focusing screen ... and could care less what their marketing people wrote about it ... only a neophite would take full frame as being literal when published right with that is the actual sensor size and 1.1X lens factor.

 

[uaiomex]

Marc:
Beautiful and most lovable portrait of this hindu girl you produced. One of the best I've seen showing someone at her best and with total rapport with the photographer.
It is amazing how much the CFV looks like film. Sharp without any hint of artifacts, even a little on the soft side which I think happens because the smooth color and tone gradations.. Colors are unbelievable too. Too bad is 1.5x crop factor.
I was thinking, now that Dalsa comes with the full frame sensor, they may cut it square to sell back makers a 40.4X40.4mm capture with 45mp's. I don't think it's going to happen, especially since it was developed with PhaseOne.
Eduardo

Don't get me wrong, Phase One WILL deliver the P65+ ... of that I have no doubt. We'll see if they deliver when they say they will. TBD.

The wish for larger sensors written here repeatly has been for a larger square sensor, not as much for a retangular sensor that's .1X larger. Folks want a bigger square for their 6X6 Hasselblads. I'd like that also. However, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. If it comes it'll probably be for the HY6, and it remains to be seen if it'll even work on a V camera. It would not surprise me if a larger square sensor was an exclusive to a Hy6 mount in order to promote the sale of the Hy6 system.

 

[keith_laban]

It would not surprise me if a larger square sensor was an exclusive to a Hy6 mount in order to promote the sale of the Hy6 system.

I can't help feeling that the future of the Hy6 depends on a full format (or near) square sensor. From a personal perspective the Hy6 is the most appealing MFD system, but it does need that sensor. I'm convinced that it will appear, and sooner rather than later.

 

[fotografz]

It would not surprise me if a larger square sensor was an exclusive to a Hy6 mount in order to promote the sale of the Hy6 system.

I can't help feeling that the future of the Hy6 depends on a full format (or near) square sensor. From a personal perspective the Hy6 is the most appealing MFD system, but it does need that sensor. I'm convinced that it will appear, and sooner rather than later.

Keith, I tend to agree. My in studio comparison revealed no real gain in going with the Hy6 ... yet. That had far more to do with the digital back than the camera and lens system. The size is the same whether on a H or a V.

It is conceivable that some sense of the order we once had with film will return. A 6X6 or 6X7 camera system for some applications and a 645 for others. It is also conceivable that one would have one or the other, or both depending on the degree of applications needed. I see both in my future if that future holds a larger square sensor.

Eduardo, thanks for the comments. it is very satisfying to capture the spirit and feeling of a young woman about to move through life. It provides them with a timeless remembrance of their youth to reflect back on later.

As I've mentioned before, I do not feel confined by the crop factor of the CFV for people work and many other subjects. For a very long time I only had a 16 meg back ( Kodak ProBack ) and quickly learned to work with it. But I don't do much landscape work.

One interesting wide solution is the use of stitching adapters for technical cameras. Photoshop now supports merging images in 16 bit and I've seen some spectacular examples of this technique. It just depends on your needs and applications. Check out the web site below if you haven't done so recently:

www.kapturegroup.com

 

[wbulte]

Don't get me wrong, Phase One WILL deliver the P65+ ... of that I have no doubt. We'll see if they deliver when they say they will. TBD.

The wish for larger sensors written here repeatly has been for a larger square sensor, not as much for a retangular sensor that's .1X larger. Folks want a bigger square for their 6X6 Hasselblads. I'd like that also. However, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. If it comes it'll probably be for the HY6, and it remains to be seen if it'll even work on a V camera. It would not surprise me if a larger square sensor was an exclusive to a Hy6 mount in order to promote the sale of the Hy6 system.

It is always entertaining to "read the tea leaves". But if I had the technology to do (near) full-frame 6x6 back I would not limit my offering to the Hy6. There is far more money to be made in backs compatible with the V-series than in a niche-market, impossibly expensive, Hy6 system. That is, assuming you get your time to market right.

Wilko

 

[keith_laban]

It is always entertaining to "read the tea leaves". But if I had the technology to do (near) full-frame 6x6 back I would not limit my offering to the Hy6. There is far more money to be made in backs compatible with the V-series than in a niche-market, impossibly expensive, Hy6 system. That is, assuming you get your time to market right.

Wilko

How many commercial/advertising photographers are still looking to put 'state of the art' digital backs on V Series cameras?

 

[polypal]

How many commercial/advertising photographers are still looking to put 'state of the art' digital backs on V Series cameras?

The answer is all those that use the V system in a studio often as a 555ELD camera that allows multishot, both 4 and 16.
And all those that use a 503 CW with winder for the same purpose.

 

[wbulte]

How many commercial/advertising photographers are still looking to put 'state of the art' digital backs on V Series cameras?

Interesting question. Just as interesting as the question how many are willing to put a 3rd mortgage on their house for a Hy6 plus the necessary optics.

In this race I would put my money on the H series Hasselblads above the Hy6.

Wilko

 

[keith_laban]

In this race I would put my money on the H series Hasselblads above the Hy6.

Wilko

Quite possibly, time will tell, but the V Series won't even be competing in that race.

 

[keith_laban]

The answer is all those that use the V system in a studio often as a 555ELD camera that allows multishot, both 4 and 16.
And all those that use a 503 CW with winder for the same purpose.

They may still be using their existing digital backs on their existing ELDs and CWs, but are they really looking to put 'state of the art' digital backs on V Series cameras?

 

[uaiomex]

Well, no.
Very expensive digtal backs will rarely be seen on V cameras. If I could afford a P65, my main camera would be a Hy6 for many weeks now.
My reality: The new sensors from Dalsa and Kodak blissed me. Certainly they will push prices of older used backs even lower.
My 500CM is ready!

Eduardo

They may still be using their existing digital backs on their existing ELDs and CWs, but are they really looking to put 'state of the art' digital backs on V Series cameras?

 

[polypal]

Reasons to buy new equipment:
Tax deductible, looks good for your business, usefull for new assignments, gives you a good feeling and so on.

I admit most of these reasons have nothing or very little to do with jobs to be done.
If it were not for digital most photographers would be quite happy operating cameras that are several decades old.
Digital is a blessing for camera and back makers!

 

[fotografz]

The answer is all those that use the V system in a studio often as a 555ELD camera that allows multishot, both 4 and 16.
And all those that use a 503 CW with winder for the same purpose.

In practice that doesn't work as well as it sounds ... I wanted a CF39 muiti-shot back with a V mount and mechanical vibrations were an issue, plus, there is no way to lock up the mirror for 4 or 16 shots on a 503CW with winder ... I could have used a 555ELD, but why?

An electronic H camera is a much better solution, and is basicly FREE with when you compare the price of a CFMS to a H3D-II/39MS Kit.

 

[fotografz]

Reasons to buy new equipment:
Tax deductible, looks good for your business, useful for new assignments, gives you a good feeling and so on.

I admit most of these reasons have nothing or very little to do with jobs to be done.
If it were not for digital most photographers would be quite happy operating cameras that are several decades old.
Digital is a blessing for camera and back makers!

Actually it has a great deal to do with the jobs to be done. Professional photography became altered forever when all printing and communication media went digital. In fact, photography had to scramble to keep up.

Today an image is so multi-purposed that it can be used on the internet and a billboard and everything in between. Magazine sizes are all over the place in terms of bleed and cropping as well as proportions ... a photographer has to often provide so much background around the image that it sometimes can strain even a high meg backs' output.

 

[fotografz]

They may still be using their existing digital backs on their existing ELDs and CWs, but are they really looking to put 'state of the art' digital backs on V Series cameras?

Not that I've experienced Keith. As an advertising art director I've hired photographers to shoot everything from food to cars to lifestyle ... in the past 5 years not one of those jobs was shot with a V camera.

Here's what I have seen used in NY, Chicago and LA where we shoot most of the ad photos:

Most frequent: View cameras for tabletop, mostly using rented Phase One digital backs with V mounts and Rodenstock or Schneider apo digital lenses; Hasselblad H1s and H2s with a variety of backs including a few multi-shots; one job done with a Contax 645 and Phase One back; A Fuji monster with T/S to do some still life, a Mamiya RZ with an Aptus back, and one Mamiya 645 also with an Aptus back.

Even though a huge number of V mount digital backs have been sold, I believe they are used more on view cameras with the ubiquitious Hasselblad V mount.

Where the V cameras may still be used professionally is in portrait studios and a few scattered event studios. That is the way I tend to still use mine. In reality, I don't need to have or use any V mount camera in my work ... I simply choose to because I love the camera itself ... which, BTW, doesn't mean I do not love the H cameras.

If I had to make a choice, the whole V system would go in favor of the H System.

The Hy6 is really nice, but even a 3 or 4 lens system is priced so high that it simply isn't on the consideration list ... given that the backs aren't any better than the less expensive choices.