Hasselblad H2F: Users Report

[pascal]

For those interested about the Leica S2, here is a piece I wrote on the Leica Users Forum:

Last Friday, I attended the Photokina in Köln and was allowed 10 minutes in the presence of a prototype S2 camera, which I could handle at will (inside the room). The Leica rep explained the system and considered it an MF system (which it actually kind of is, though CEO Kaufmann would not agree). The camera (prototype) behaved very well, taking into account that this is not even the final product. It appeared lighter than I thought it would be, and handled very well, almost like an SLR. Compared to MF systems like a Hasselblad H, it felt smaller/lighter though the actual figures may not be so far out of each other. The autofocus worked snappy enough for me. The viewfinder offered an excellent view though, it must be said, maybe not as bright as comparable viewfinders of my Rolleiflex 6008 AF and Hasselblad H1. It may be my impression, so further testing would be needed. Eye relief for eyeglass wearers is ok but less impressive than with my Rolleiflex. Built quality of the whole system is very German, meaning sturdy and well-made. I asked about pricing. The answer was that it had not yet been set and it would take into account market prices of comparable (MF) systems at the time when it would become available. In the corridors I heard anything between 15000 and 20000 euro. The Leica rep added that the system was in any case intended for professionals. He also told there was no compatibility with R lenses. The system is designed and manufactured in-house, and in Germany.

When pressed about a digital R prospect, he said they were working on it but could not indicate a time line. I asked if the digital R would have a full-format sensor, and he replied affirmatively.

All in all, I am really impressed with the S2 system though I don't think I would buy it, having already invested heavily in other systems (M, R, Rollei, Hassy). Actually, that is my main worry: why would current MF users who invested already in an expensive system dump their systems and switch to the S2? New users, of course, have an extra choice. But I wonder if that market is actually big enough for the S systems to be sustainable at a decent price. I wish Leica luck with this one. The future of the company may be depending on it, if one thinks about the investments made.

Pascal

 

[fotografz]

Evan you pointed the question at Marc.
Nevertheless I would like to mention the coming arrival of the Leica S2 camera.

What I have seen sofar that camera is a photographers dream concept.
Excellent lenses, perfect handling, 37 Mp and all for a very affordable price.
Leica will spend whatever it takes to make the S2 camera a succes

For those who are not aware of it, Leica was bought by a succesful German industrial
who has the means to make a succes of this new product.
The M8 cameras design plans were not even dry when work on the S2 started.
This ambitious scheme is not the only thing Leica R&D is working on.
The new R10 is also past the first design stages.
A strong rumour is heard it will be presented together with the S2 or shortly after
the introduction of the S2.

It does not take much imagination that all manufacturers of MF camera systems are
watching closely what is happening in Solms where Leica is situated now.


Paul

Paul, Evan says that he shoots and scans film. The Leica S2 is digital only with no removeable back. The S2 is a focal plane camera so will not have the high flash sync speed Even is looking for. Finally, there has been no discussion of being able to adapt other lenses to the S2, so Evan's plan to bridge the gap by using Zeiss C lenses that sync to 1/500th can't be done.

BTW, where did you get the impression that the Leica S2 will be reasonably priced? That would be a first for Leica. Just curious if you know something. Speculation has it to be around $30K ... and we all know that Leica lenses will not be bargin basement prices.

FYI: the big news from Hasselblad at Photokina was a massive price reduction on all H3D products and the CF-II line. Brand new 39 meg. CF back that can be used on most any MF camera using iAdapters is now $20K, H3D-II/39 is now $22K. This will eventually trickle down to impact used prices.

 

[pascal]

Hi Evan,

interesting question you put forward. I use Leica M and R, as well as a Hasselblad H1 (all film-based) and a Rolleiflex 6008 AF with digital back. You should be aware that there are digital backs from Phase One available for the Contax 645 AF. An "older" back may actually be affordable. My back is a Rollei-rebadged Phase One P20 with 16 megapixels and square format sensor. It produces lovely results. The back is comparable to the Hasselblad CFV for the V series.

The differences between the H1 and H2 do not really matter, unless you were to use the H2 in combination with digital backs. If not, don't waste your money on this. I handed in my H1 for a software upgrade, and that costed me something like 50 euro. The only difference that could matter is that you have a rechargeable battery with the H2 (3 lithiums 123 with the H1). But for a hobby photographer who does not use the camera every day, this is hardly a point. Especially if you use it with film backs, and no digital backs.

Before you commit to the H1 or H2 series, have also a look at the Rolleiflex 6008 AF or even the latest Hy6.

Pascal

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

You have a vast knowledge of what works and what doesn't work. As an experienced photographer with access to the very best equipment, you are probably the best person to give sound and most probably direct answers to questions asked of you.

I use my Contax 645 system as my do-all AF MF system. I am not a professional such as you do depends on his equipment to bring in his bread and butter.

I do agree that speed & QUALITY is of the upmost importance to delivering a good product to their clients.

I recently shot a wedding and a Wedding Vow Renewal of some close friends. No money or fees was asked, just my time out of friendship.

I realize that the Contax 645 is too slow in AF, it wanders too much in dark settings. in daylight , no problem except I would love to have the leaf shutter settings.

I am highly disappointed at the slow and sluggish speed of the AF and fixed shutter speed of 1/125 as being the top speed. The lenses, I find to be excellent and on par with my Hasselblad V lenses. No digital MF back as the cost is still too high and I can't recoup my initial cost in it. So for now, I scan in my negatives and positives on a Creo/Scitex Eversmart scanner. Max dpi is 3175, good enough for my current needs.

Now what my question is leading up to, which H system would allow me the most bang for my bucks for current & eventually future needs?

I would of course buy the CF lens adapter to help bridge me over till I can acquire more lenses. I was looking at the H1 (have it converted over to H2), or go directly to a H2. At least this way, I can have future options of looking at a good used digital back when prices fall abit.The H2F looks very promising, but however the total cost when i put together a working kit would cost me a bundle.

What would you suggest for someone who is at this crossroad?

Thanks in advance,
Evan

Evan, I previously used a Contax 645, and my experiences mirrored yours exactly. Great camera for it's time but I missed to many shots due to the slow AF. Plus, I also needed higher sync speeds.

If you want swift AF and higher flash sync speeds, and the ability to use film backs or digital backs ... there are really 2 choices: The H system and the Hy6 system.

If you add the need to use existing Zeiss C lenses to the above list of requirements, then the field narrows to the H system.

There are really only 2 choices (as I would not recommend the H1, even a converted one): The H2 and the H2F, both of which accept film backs and digital backs.

The H2's advantage is that there are currently a number of digital backs that can be adapted to it. As of right now, the H2F accepts only a Hasselbald CF or CF-II back. However, I know that Phase One is working on the proper firmware to use their backs on a H2F. The H2F is very new, so it will take some time.

The H2F's advantage is that it can accept a wider range of lenses (i.e., the 28D and the new 45-90D ASPH.), and more importantly retains all the software innovations in Phocus RAW developer like DAC. Perhaps not important to you now, but maybe later.

Contact me off-line if you are interested in a H2F Kit, 2 film backs and a CF adapter. I may be selling mine to fund a H3D-II/60.

 

[pascal]

Hi Marc, the S2 has a focal plain shutter, but some lenses will also have a leaf shutter, so this addresses some of the concerns Evan had.

 

[fotografz]

Hi Marc, the S2 has a focal plain shutter, but some lenses will also have a leaf shutter, so this addresses some of the concerns Evan had.

I think you mean "Leaf Shutter" ... Can't imagine what those will cost coming from Leica : -)

If you regularly use strobe or on camera flash like I do, ALL the lenses have to be Leaf Shutter. If it's just an occasional need, then a couple of Leaf Shutter lenses would seem enough.

Everyone is quite excited about the S2, including me ... however, starting all over with a totally new system is quite a financial hit ... not to worry anyway, they won't have it out for some time I think ... and when they do it'll be full ticket until demands dies down. In the meantime, the other MF makers aren't sitting around doing nothing.

After the M8 trials and tribulations I'll wait this time. Let someone else be the test animal : -)

I'm more excited about the huge price drop for established MF systems, and what ripple effect it'll have.

 

[polypal]

I would like to repeat my earlier post:

The arrival of the S2 by Leica will reshuffle the field of MF manufacturers.
My opinion is not only based on technical information available but also on the financial background of current players in the MF field.

Pascal:
Do not worry about the effects an unlikely unsuccesful S2 will have on the Leica camera company.
With Mr Kaufmann as owner and CEO that will be as unlikely as ice skating in hell.

Paul

 

[evanjoe610]

Marc,

Thanks for sorting out the differences for me.

Any reason why not go for an convert H1 to H2?

Was there a major difference in an original H2 over the converted H1 to H2?

If so, what were these changes?

The H2F sounds very promising. Especially if I plan to buy the 28mm and

the shorted zoom. Is this zoom the 35-90mm or is it more like 45-90mm?

That focal range appears to be similar to the Contax 45-90mm zoom and Pentax 645 45-85mm zoom. Both of these zooms have very good optical performances. Probably explain why Mamiya ismaking a similar 45-90mm zoom too.

I would guess that the H2F are so new that there aren't too many available used and at a good price. I would have to fund it with some sale of my equipment though.



Evan

Evan, I previously used a Contax 645, and my experiences mirrored yours exactly. Great camera for it's time but I missed to many shots due to the slow AF. Plus, I also needed higher sync speeds.

If you want swift AF and higher flash sync speeds, and the ability to use film backs or digital backs ... there are really 2 choices: The H system and the Hy6 system.

If you add the need to use existing Zeiss C lenses to the above list of requirements, then the field narrows to the H system.

There are really only 2 choices (as I would not recommend the H1, even a converted one): The H2 and the H2F, both of which accept film backs and digital backs.

The H2's advantage is that there are currently a number of digital backs that can be adapted to it. As of right now, the H2F accepts only a Hasselbald CF or CF-II back. However, I know that Phase One is working on the proper firmware to use their backs on a H2F. The H2F is very new, so it will take some time.

The H2F's advantage is that it can accept a wider range of lenses (i.e., the 28D and the new 45-90D ASPH.), and more importantly retains all the software innovations in Phocus RAW developer like DAC. Perhaps not important to you now, but maybe later.

Contact me off-line if you are interested in a H2F Kit, 2 film backs and a CF adapter. I may be selling mine to fund a H3D-II/60.

 

[bensonga]

I am currently hunting down the now discontinued CF/22 back for use on this camera ... specifically to use with 500 series lenses. I like the look of 9X9 micron sensors with the Zeiss lenses (like the CFV.)

Hi Marc. Were you ever able to find one of these CF/22 backs? They seem to be pretty few and far between. Any idea why Hasselblad discontinued them? It seems like the H2F and CF/22 would have been a great entry level H system camera for those who really wanted autofocus lenses (as opposed to being quite happy with the 503CWD and V-system). If only they could have made it available for about $10-12k.

Gary Benson

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

Thanks for sorting out the differences for me.

Any reason why not go for an convert H1 to H2?

Was there a major difference in an original H2 over the converted H1 to H2?

If so, what were these changes?

The H2F sounds very promising. Especially if I plan to buy the 28mm and

the shorted zoom. Is this zoom the 35-90mm or is it more like 45-90mm?

That focal range appears to be similar to the Contax 45-90mm zoom and Pentax 645 45-85mm zoom. Both of these zooms have very good optical performances. Probably explain why Mamiya ismaking a similar 45-90mm zoom too.

I would guess that the H2F are so new that there aren't too many available used and at a good price. I would have to fund it with some sale of my equipment though.



Evan

Opps, my bad ... yes, it's a 35-90 Zoom that Hasselblad just announced. This is a very expensive lens ... at least initially. I will wait to see if that price drops over time. However, if you add up the price of a 35, 50 and 80 prime it may not be as scary of a price for the 35-90.

No, there isn't a major difference in a converted H1 verses the H2. My reservations would be age and history. Also, some earlier HC lenses that work with an H1 will need their firmware updated.

In my opinion, the HCD/28 is an essential lens to own eventually (depending on your applications.) there is nothing in the Zeiss C lens line up that wide. The HCD/28 is a digital application lens only and will not cover the full film frame. The H2F does accept the HCD/28 when used with a CF or CF-II back. For film, the HC/35 is the widest optic.

The major advantage of the H2F is that with digital applications, The DAC software corrections are applied to lenses from 28 to 80 ... according to recent info to the new zoom also. These software corrections have to be seen to be believed.

If you eventually get a CF or CF-II back, and also have a 500 series camera, then that CF back can be used on the V camera also ... just swap out the iAdapter.

I don't know what H1s and H2 are going for now. I would have to figure out a price for my H2F kit. Do you currently have any Zeiss V lenses?

 

[fotografz]

Hi Marc. Were you ever able to find one of these CF/22 backs? They seem to be pretty few and far between. Any idea why Hasselblad discontinued them? It seems like the H2F and CF/22 would have been a great entry level H system camera for those who really wanted autofocus lenses (as opposed to being quite happy with the 503CWD and V-system). If only they could have made it available for about $10-12k.

Gary Benson

Gary, Hasselblad discontinued the 22 backs most likely because their stock of them was low when Kodak discontinued making the 22 sensors.
Other makers still seem to have them, but I know Kodak stopped making them, and removed that sensor from their sensor listings on the Kodak professional web site.

I did find some CF22 backs when I was looking, but when I got wind of the huge price reductions coming from Hasselblad, I waited. I can now get a new CF-II/39 back for the H2F for not a huge difference in price from a used 22. I will wait now to see if the 22s come down in price.

However, I'm now intertested in a H3D-II/60 ... so may sell the H2F and some other gear to fund the 60.

 

[pascal]

Regarding the new 35-90mm zoom lens a bummer may be that, by its own admission, Hasselblad satisfied itself with lesser lens corrections in terms of vignetting and other aberrations. They do add that these are being compensated by the software, but this is clearly a different lens designing philosophy compared to German designers like Leica or Schneider who are after maximal optical corrections within a given lens system.
The admission by Hasselblad about their "lesser" optimized lens design is a first for Hasselblad, I believe. I don't believe other lenses suffer from this.

 

[fotografz]

Regarding the new 35-90mm zoom lens a bummer may be that, by its own admission, Hasselblad satisfied itself with lesser lens corrections in terms of vignetting and other aberrations. They do add that these are being compensated by the software, but this is clearly a different lens designing philosophy compared to German designers like Leica or Schneider who are after maximal optical corrections within a given lens system.
The admission by Hasselblad about their "lesser" optimized lens design is a first for Hasselblad, I believe. I don't believe other lenses suffer from this.

They sure do, at least some of them ... and Phase One is also now building new software corrections to compensate for it much like DAC.

You would be amazed by some of the stuff that shows up when shooting with a 39+ meg digital back.

The 28 and new zoom are D lenses ... smaller coverage and use of software to maximize CA and Distortion corrections.

I personally don't care how they get there, all I care about is the end result.

 

[evanjoe610]

Marc,

Interesting information regarding the 28mm and the new zoom. So software to correct the limitations encounter by the physical design of the lenses to double up for both film & digital application I assume?

Yes, I have V lenses for both my 500 series (7 CF) and for my 2000/200 series (7). For the 2000/200 series, I have the 60-120mm FE zoom and the 80mmFE as my only FE lenses. The rest are the older F lenses.
I am hoping that the H system bodies can take the F and FE lenses too.


I guess that i f I decide to buy into the H system, I would have to par down on what I have to pay for it.


Evan

Opps, my bad ... yes, it's a 35-90 Zoom that Hasselblad just announced. This is a very expensive lens ... at least initially. I will wait to see if that price drops over time. However, if you add up the price of a 35, 50 and 80 prime it may not be as scary of a price for the 35-90.

No, there isn't a major difference in a converted H1 verses the H2. My reservations would be age and history. Also, some earlier HC lenses that work with an H1 will need their firmware updated.

In my opinion, the HCD/28 is an essential lens to own eventually (depending on your applications.) there is nothing in the Zeiss C lens line up that wide. The HCD/28 is a digital application lens only and will not cover the full film frame. The H2F does accept the HCD/28 when used with a CF or CF-II back. For film, the HC/35 is the widest optic.

The major advantage of the H2F is that with digital applications, The DAC software corrections are applied to lenses from 28 to 80 ... according to recent info to the new zoom also. These software corrections have to be seen to be believed.

If you eventually get a CF or CF-II back, and also have a 500 series camera, then that CF back can be used on the V camera also ... just swap out the iAdapter.

I don't know what H1s and H2 are going for now. I would have to figure out a price for my H2F kit. Do you currently have any Zeiss V lenses?

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

Interesting information regarding the 28mm and the new zoom. So software to correct the limitations encounter by the physical design of the lenses to double up for both film & digital application I assume?

Yes, I have V lenses for both my 500 series (7 CF) and for my 2000/200 series (7). For the 2000/200 series, I have the 60-120mm FE zoom and the 80mmFE as my only FE lenses. The rest are the older F lenses.
I am hoping that the H system bodies can take the F and FE lenses too.


I guess that i f I decide to buy into the H system, I would have to par down on what I have to pay for it.


Evan

Evan, the F and FE lenses do not work with any H camera. They are for Focal Plane shutter cameras. The Leaf Shutter C, CF,CFE,CFi lens do work using the CF adapter.

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

Interesting information regarding the 28mm and the new zoom. So software to correct the limitations encounter by the physical design of the lenses to double up for both film & digital application I assume?

Yes, I have V lenses for both my 500 series (7 CF) and for my 2000/200 series (7). For the 2000/200 series, I have the 60-120mm FE zoom and the 80mmFE as my only FE lenses. The rest are the older F lenses.
I am hoping that the H system bodies can take the F and FE lenses too.


I guess that i f I decide to buy into the H system, I would have to par down on what I have to pay for it.


Evan

Evan, the F and FE lenses do not work with any H camera. They are for Focal Plane shutter cameras. The Leaf Shutter C, CF, CFE, CFi lens do work using the CF adapter.

The 28mm and DAC corrections are NOT for film, only digital capture.

 

[evanjoe610]

Marc,

Thanks for the clarification regarding the 28mm and DAC corrections, I figure that it was meant to be use only with the digital back.

As for the other F & FE lenses, I will have to use it either on the 200 series body I have and also on the Contax 645.

So I figure out if its the H2 (either H1 converted or H2) or H2F I will go for.


Evan

Evan, the F and FE lenses do not work with any H camera. They are for Focal Plane shutter cameras. The Leaf Shutter C, CF, CFE, CFi lens do work using the CF adapter.

The 28mm and DAC corrections are NOT for film, only digital capture.