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50th anniversary

Marc,

People who know about sensor production told me a bigger sensor can be made for a relatively modest increase in price.
Makers of digital backs are reluctant to dive into the deep.
With higher prices the volume they can expect to sell goes down at an alarming rate.
My guess is that larger sensors consist of two sections joined together has to do with production control.
By joining two parts faults in one of the parts can be corrected by fitting another section that meets the specs.
This way the rejection rate goes down and more usable sensors come from the same number of wavers.


I would welcome a back that can be changed easily from portrait to landscpape mode. Maybe a good project for Sinar?

Paul
 
Marc, always a pleasure to read your posts.

I mostly agree with on your last post.

"One sensor size for all legacy 6X6 and 645 systems in the known universe"
That's the phrase closing one of my posts here.
It is true MF photography is a niche, now more than ever, but with all the 6x6 and 645 systems purchased by photographers around the globe during 6 decades, don't you think they become a substantial bounty for DB makers?

Not only serious amateurs want the $10,000 usd "solution". There are thousands of professional photographers working in underdeveloped countries waiting for this solution.
Current DB prices are a joke and/or an insult in developing countries.

I bet there are 100 6X6/645 systems in perfect working condition for each MF "digital" system- I mean, those sold as digital cameras or digital-ready.

I believe that DB and camera makers haven't addressed this issue with responsability.
R&ant capitalism anyone?

Thoughts?

Eduardo
 
Eduardo,

What is wrong with using film when you do not have to meet ever shorter delivery time like we think is necessary in our part of the world?

How many amateurs do you think spend 10.000 USD on a digital back?
If those were the potential buyers for digital backs no back maker would even think about producing them.

My guess is you have to wait till the Chinese come up with a good and affordable back.
They may even leap to full frame or close to that.
What people in developing countries can afford is of no interest or responsability to digital back makers.

Even in the rich western world there are many photographers that cannot afford MF digital or have a turnover that will give them an economical reason to make such an investment.
They choose other solutions or go on using film.

Paul
 
Paul,

There's nothing wrong about using film. It is just that digital is more convenient and more fun. It is undeniable digital is a real advantage for pros.

I have no idea about how many amateurs buy 10k dbacks. Probably too few. What I do know is about the big number of pro's waiting for these affordable solutions.

You say that it isn't camera makers' responsability if working pros in developing countries can't afford a dback. One thing is legal and another thing is fair. Your point of view seems to me a little bit twisted. I was referring to all struggling pros in the world including those working in USA and Europe.
Allow me please to do an analogy here: Rich countries are like rich people. Tough decisions mean what color to buy. - Developing countries are like middle-class people, This people live in an endless turmoil on what to buy or not. Always between what they want or what they need. Always pushing harder and always saving to see if they might caught up with price if inflation doesn't beat them. - Poor countries are like poor people. They spend all their lifes struggling just for survival.

That we live in a developing countries doesn't mean that we don't have the right to dream and wish for better things.

I do believe manufacturers of anything have social responsabilities toward their customers.
Best
Eduardo
 
Eduardo,

I am neither twisted nor unfair.
I am a realist and happen to run a business not by guidelines that have to do with convenience nor fun.
It means I have a responsability to deliver a good product in time for the right price.
This does not mean I do not like what I do.

Everybody is entitled to have dreams.
I dream about a full frame sensor digital back.
I dream about more time to spend at research and training to explore new ways and possibilities in imaging.

Manufacturers have a lot of responsabilities.
First they have to manage their business so that it makes a profit.
Without good results you cannot survive.
You need to survive to be able to keep jobs for people that work for you.
They do not have a social obligation towards their customers.
I fear your idea of a social obligation is to sell products for less money maybe even at a loss. That is the worst thing they can do for their customers. It means the end of their service.
The best thing they can do is make a healthy business so that their customers can have their products serviced and upgraded for many years to come.

Paul
 
"It is just that digital is more convenient and more fun."

Not always. Endless computer processing isn't my idea of fun.

"I was referring to all struggling pros in the world including those working in USA and Europe."

Digital backs are in the pipeline for developing countries. Companies are refurbishing backs and selling them there. As the newer backs get out there, then get traded in, the pipeline will fill up more. Hasselblad currently has a promotion allowing $5000. for any back traded in for a new one. I wonder where those are going?

Most of the back makers offer substantial student discounts. Hasselblad has a couple of interest free "least to own" programs you can spread out over time for emerging (or struggling) photographers ... when I was short of money I bought that way.

Just a few factual counter-points Eduardo.
 
With all due respect and not to sound sarcastic.

I would like a full frame affordable sensor too.

If businesses were run to provide for all, then we could all have a Bentley, Ferrari, and a ship to go with it!

But, that would be impossible as all of those companies would be out of business attempting to provide for all.

Mr. Royce wanted to build the finest automobile.

Mr. Ford wanted everyone to put a Ford in their garage.

BTW-Not everyone in America is rich, the middle class struggle just to keep afloat. Today many families here, both parents work 60 to 70 hours a week and the average vacation time taken is 10 days a year. To some extent it is an issue that is a relative one, meaning that as everyone knows some places cost more to live than others.

Please understand this is just a few comments on a very complex subject.

Regards:

Gilbert
 
My take is that given the relatively large number of manufacturers releasing MF backs today, the sensor size developed so far is as much as their R&D budgets can take them - the continuing pace of development need good financial returns in the meantime.

Remembering that the MF camera companies have taken enormous financial hits over the past 5 years or so, maybe we are lucky that the extent of options available now are what they are.

Sure, like so many I would like a 1:1 6x6 back so that my v-series gear remains "the same" - even a 1.1x crop factor would keep me happy. And then of course we'd all prefer such backs to cost a maximum of $10k!
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But sadly that is just too unrealistic. I bet, even the camera companies would give their eye teeth for such back to be available; then 100% of MF's traditional advantages would have MF equipment selling like it did in its halcyon days! Just look how far Hasselblad (camera company) has shrunk since the digi-era!

But the technology and the financial issues just don't allow for that and I bet these companies technicians, marketing and finance people have been agonising over this for a long time now.

I remember the interview with Hasselblad's new CEO last year when he said he doubts we will ever see 1:1 digi backs and that 45mp may be the "practical" limit - we'd get all the image detail etc we really need and the file sizes would be as large as could possibly be practical. His company intends to focus attention on image/pixel quality rather than quantity at that stage.

Gee I hope he is wrong and that we get truly full frame 6x4.5 and 6x6 rich in image detail and all for under $10k per back. But I suspect that if I hold my breath waiting I will die of soffocation!
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In the meantime I'm sticking with film!
happy.gif
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It's a popular bit of lore that one leading software company once thought 640 kB of memory would be more than we would ever need.
I wouldn't be surprised if larger chips would be possible soon, for not much more, or even a bit less, than what the present things cost today.

I also think that the market for these things would be a lot larger than the amateur segment only: why would a professional not want to keep his V-System gear going? Especially when the back would be in the 'cheap' price bracket?

A basic Hasselblad V-System kit wasn't cheap either, yet millions of amateurs bought one. Something in the sub-US$ 10,000 bracket will be 'affordable' for 'Hasselblad amateurs' too.
Whether they will afford themselves one, and not get a much cheaper Canon instead, is, i think, another matter.
 
QG, I certainly agree with your comments about the rapid accelleration in the IT sector making things like 1MB a lot of memory one day and that maybe few ever thought would become 1GB and rising the next day.

What struck me with that interview was that the CEO of a technology company (certainly the "digi" part of Imacon / Hasselblad is a technology company) was that he was claiming to be looking out towards the horizon. Now maybe he chose his words very carefully to avoid things like customers keeping a closed wallet until the next generation of backs arrive; but, then he may have only been looking as far as the next few years bearing in mind what projects are on the table now.

I suppose in the recent past they have wanted / hoped for customers to migrate to the H series. And, just maybe they realise that they have a somewhat untapped legacy customer base in V series products.
 
I'm surprised about the fact that when the CVF was lunch, anyone said that the ccd was only the old kodak. But then nobody find default to this back. Perhaps 16Mpix is allready enought. Perhaps the colors quality is top to what expected.

Perhaps every one who has old V system cann be a CFV custoner. Perhaps a new Canon-Nikon may kill the H market.
Lot of question in fact.
It may be reasonable that Hasselblad continus to offert the choise to every body to be sure to win. If they drive marketing only in H way they cann loose.

It's borowing to read on CWD stupid advertising that H serie is beter.
 
" ... why would a professional not want to keep his V-System gear going?"

We'll I would for one ... which is what I did. But realistically, the market is flooded with V gear because most professionals didn't keep the system. They have or are in the process of moving on ... despite the fact that you can use all of the 16, 22, 33 & 39 meg backs on the 500 series cameras.

"A basic Hasselblad V-System kit wasn't cheap either, yet millions of amateurs bought one."

$3000. is a long way from $30,000. don't you think Q.G.? Besides, if your theory were true, then the CFV and Phase One sub $10,000. backs would be flying off the the shelves in record numbers ... which they are not.

"And, just maybe they realize that they have a somewhat untapped legacy customer base in V series products."

From your lips to Hasselblad's ears Simon. Nothing would please me more than a larger sensor in a CFV back at around $10,000. ... with the 16 meg CFV at around $6,500.
I just don't think there is enough volume to support this desire.

Hasselblad is focused on the high end professional market that has the business base to invest in these tools. As Willy Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks, "It's where the money is".

Much of our musings on this subject is backward aimed ... to be able to use our hard earned V gear collected over the years that we've come to love. However, as the digital juggernaut has advanced, it's become apparent that the media used has come to dominate the decision process ... mostly due to the cost. Where the modular portion that holds the film (A12 & A24 film backs) was once a minor cost factor, a digital back now costs more than the entire system combined.

As far as 1.1X verses full frame 645 backs: this is not an issue for most working pros. Few would incur the expense to upgrade for full frame alone. IMO, at 8.5 X11.33 the aspect ratio of the current 645 backs is very close to real world practical applications with less wasted capture area for most publications including bleed, and loses about 1.5" off the bottom when producing a double truck spread. And as I have discovered, almost exactly fills a standard 17X22 print for art display work.

"Perhaps a new Canon-Nikon may kill the H market."

Any MF killing by these cameras has been done already I think. The wedding/event industry already moved to DSLRs. The battlefield array has drastically changed by shifting to MF digital capture for professional photographers who know the 35mm format is restrictive no matter how many megs they pack into the space. A 16 meg CFV outperforms a 16 meg 1DsMKII now, and that won't change when Canon packs 22 or 24 meg into the 1DsMKIII verses a 645 sized 22 meg back, let alone a 31 or 39 meg version or better yet a 39 meg multi-shot.

You guys are speculating out of thin air. I'm using all this stuff on a daily basis, and working with other pros I hire to shoot my ad agency's work. Like with film, for critical image quality and versatile applications ( view camera for ex&le), high resolution MF digital is STILL the standard, not 35mm. The reason is that the files produced are plastic in their multiple application abilities. Clients now expect a key shot to be used in myriad ways, from internet to billboards ... and this includes the ability to severely crop an image to use a portion in ads or other printed materials.
 
Marc,

I agree with you and could not have made it clearer.

The difference between professional high grade digital and what amateurs are prepared to pay makes the MF format split where it once was joined when film was the only medium.
 
Hi Paul,

> People who know about sensor production told me a bigger sensor can be > made for a relatively modest increase in price.

It's simply a matter of area. Die sizes (what the sensors are made on, and typically round and 6 or 8 inches in diameter) are only so big, and you get only so many from a single fixed die. The other issue is yield. Larger sensors typically have lower yield, which makes them more expensive. They also have to be tested, and larger sensors take longer to test.

Also, the larger sensors typically require more power, and obviously more periphery circuitry.

> My guess is that larger sensors consist of two sections joined > together has to do with production control.

I personally know of no sensors (in the commercial world that is) that are joined as you suggest. That would be a very difficult thing to do (I have made a number of ASICs, as in custom chips), and would likely not be economical if it would work at all.

I've priced out making custom CCD sensors, and the NRE (Non-Recurring Engineering) cost was between $60k and $250k for a new medium format sized sensor. Then, it's simply an economy of scale as to how much the subsequent sensors are once you have the design working as you want.

So, yes, bigger sensors of course can be made, but it's not just an incremental price. But, in reality, I don't see a problem with making a full frame 6x6 sensor. I think "they" figure they may not sell many, especially when the sensor it self costs $1-$2k each or more. Think of how much the CPU in your computer costs (at least the high end ones like a Xeon), and they are a fraction the size of these large digital imaging sensors. Silicon area costs money.

Regards,

Austin
 
Simon, it is not long ago that we were told that LCD monitors on laptops were incredibly expensive to manufacture and that for each one that reached the market x went into the trash can (or rubbish bin as we call them). We were told that "missing pixels" were just something inevitable that we had to put up with.

This year CRT televisions have vanished and the TV shops are full of 40 inch high definition LCD TVs, and even bigger. Good LCD monitors (is there another kind?) are affordable and plentiful.

My point is that manufacturers PR is usually market department crap - and we are very silly if we believe it all. Doesn't anyone follow Scott Adams's Dilbert? Anyone who has worked in a large commercial organization (and some none-commercial ones) knows that it is a fair reflection of real life!

So, I do not believe that full frame MF digital backs are not feasible in the near future, But, from the manufacturer's point of view, would it make commercial sense to with-hold digital backs until the full frame ones were in production? Of course not - and if in the meantime people buy ones with tiny sensors at high prices, this keeps things running and pays for the development of the real thing.

Note that Nikon are about to follow Canon into the full-frame market. Nothing less would keep them in business in the long term. So, why should another Japanese company (Hasselblad) not follow? If they don't they will go under.
 
Hi Marc,

> As far as I know, > current 645 sensors utilize 2 sensor components together to make up > the whole.

They are physically one sensor (as in, made as one unit), they are not made as two halves and put together. What they are, is made in quadrants or halves...logically. In other words, each half or quadrant has it's own set of readout capabilities. This is done for readout speed. A logically "halved" sensor would read out in half the time, and a logically "quartered" sensor would read out in one quarter the time.

> This presented a whole host of challenges to the > hardware/firmware/software engineers to make these 2 elements work > seamlessly ... especially as the meg count of sensors has increased.

I've worked with halved and quadranted sensors (logically that is), and the issues are not really a big deal at all, at least in my experience.

> The Leaf Aptus backs struggled with this issue resulting in captures > sporting what was called "centerfolding" ... where 1/2 of the image > was different than the other half, (since solved with new > firmware/software).

Well, that sounds more to me like buggy, not well tested software, or a product/software that hasn't undergone DVT (Design Verification Testing), which it simply amazes me that few manufacturers actually do a thorough design verification, and have such poor test suits much less a comprehensive test plan.

One other post of yours commented:

"Like with a computer, idiosyncratic hiccups become a known factor, and you develop a standard procedure to remedy the problem in just a few minutes."

This is poor engineering, poor testing and/or poor design. Nothing but, and should not be acceptable. If your car or TV behaved this way, you would not tolerate it. But, SPECIFICALLY because of SHODDY Windows, people have come to expect this as the norm in computers. In my world (of engineering), this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

Regards,

Austin
 
Hi Bojan,

> Note that Nikon are about to follow Canon into the full-frame market.

That's the first I've heard of this (aside from unfounded rumors that is)! Were did you get that info from?

Regards,

Austin
 
Marc,

Yes, the market is indeed flooded with V-System cameras, dumped by professionals because they chose another way to get onto the Digido.
And for every camera dumped, there is one less vehicle for backs like the CFV or a larger sensor version of the same.

The proposition (perhaps not entirely realistic) was one of a sub US$ 10,000 larger sensor back. That would be affordable for many amateurs and professionals alike.
And would appeal, i think, to many professionals as well as to amateurs.

And this is one of these moments i miss Robert Monaghan, and his much used statistics which show that the average income of a professional photographer is rather low. Many amateurs may have more spending money than the average professional photographer (though also many certainly don't).

But would a larger chip indeed be so much more expensive?
Would it be impossible to have a sensor that is about 15% larger (linear) than the one used now, that is also only about that much, or not very much more, more expensive?
And with the cost of everything electronic continuously coming down, why would sensors be an exception? Maybe such larger chip backs could be even more affordable than the current CFV!

The question remains though how many photographers - amateur or pro - will still be waiting for such a thing.
The market has indeed already decided, and many of the potential larger sensor back using cameras are floating, waiting to be snapped up as a bargain, on a bargain budget. They will not again be a potential vehicle for digital backs, not even sub US$ 10,000 ones.
So if a larger sensor will come, and come soon too, i think it will still be too late.
 
Austin, it was recent and in a photographic journal but I cannot recall which. Do you imagine that Nikon will leave this area to Canon?
 
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