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What printer to buy
- Thread starter mr_orange
- Start date
That's extremely interesting, as I understand it, using a "self-made"
monitor profile courtesy of Apple utility,and then keeping it as your
print working space, instead of, for ex&le: Adobe RGB 1998.
Epson's Advanced BW "RIP" does an excellent job for BW on the 2400
and 3800. Using simpler, less "digitally dependent" means returns
printing to a more intuitive darkroom "feel". The prints you pull
become the "you" you want them to be.
monitor profile courtesy of Apple utility,and then keeping it as your
print working space, instead of, for ex&le: Adobe RGB 1998.
Epson's Advanced BW "RIP" does an excellent job for BW on the 2400
and 3800. Using simpler, less "digitally dependent" means returns
printing to a more intuitive darkroom "feel". The prints you pull
become the "you" you want them to be.
jotloob
Well-Known Member
I have been testing around with almost all options (3 different papers , and also profiles from HAHNEMÜHLE , which are absolutely useless) and found the following for my setup:
EPSON STYLUS PRO 4800 , EPSON INK , HAHNEMÜHLE PAPERS: TORCHON , FINE ART PEARL 285gr and PHOTO RAG 308 :
I set up the PSCS3 color working space to ADOBE RGB (or the new european ICC : eciRGB_V2.ICC) which is almost identical .
Printing is done , giving control to PSCS3 , colorspace as source , ADOBE RGB or iecRGB V2 but using , at colormanagement , COLORMODUS to ADOBE RGB .
Please note that EPSON sRGB does not give you the full color space ! ! !
Also , using your LCD calibrated profile as color working space is not as good , as using ADOBE RGB .
This produces an almost identical color on my image printouts . There are slight differences .
Also I found that you should not compare colors immediately after printing . I know , waiting a couple of hours , for judging what you have produced , is driving your nerves down .
Having studied many contributions in the net , this seems to be normal .
Also , and this has to be said , just to be honest , there are many ways to the city of ROME , and each way can be used . The result is the only thing what counts .
What I have learned , is , having the correct ICC profile for your setup might give you excellent prints , but the way to that result is long and hard . Very hard and long .
I wish you all , strong nerves and finally good prints . Jürgen
EPSON STYLUS PRO 4800 , EPSON INK , HAHNEMÜHLE PAPERS: TORCHON , FINE ART PEARL 285gr and PHOTO RAG 308 :
I set up the PSCS3 color working space to ADOBE RGB (or the new european ICC : eciRGB_V2.ICC) which is almost identical .
Printing is done , giving control to PSCS3 , colorspace as source , ADOBE RGB or iecRGB V2 but using , at colormanagement , COLORMODUS to ADOBE RGB .
Please note that EPSON sRGB does not give you the full color space ! ! !
Also , using your LCD calibrated profile as color working space is not as good , as using ADOBE RGB .
This produces an almost identical color on my image printouts . There are slight differences .
Also I found that you should not compare colors immediately after printing . I know , waiting a couple of hours , for judging what you have produced , is driving your nerves down .
Having studied many contributions in the net , this seems to be normal .
Also , and this has to be said , just to be honest , there are many ways to the city of ROME , and each way can be used . The result is the only thing what counts .
What I have learned , is , having the correct ICC profile for your setup might give you excellent prints , but the way to that result is long and hard . Very hard and long .
I wish you all , strong nerves and finally good prints . Jürgen
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Colin wrote
>> So , I now I don't switch inks , I switch print path . A print using Hahnemuhle William Turner or similar , with a custom profile , ( cathysprofiles.com or an other ) makes a knockout print . <<
Colin , I have found an ICC-Profile service here in Germany , with a very good description , of how to print the testcharts, how to install the profile and how to use it for printing .
(and very strange here , all for MAC OSX users) .
I will get an EPSON 3800 printer tomorrow , and I will do , as you do , switch print paths .
I will use my 4800 for matte and the 3800 for glossy images . So , no need to bleed expensive ink into the maintenance tank anymore .
Could you please give some more info of the quality of the colors , since you have installed the ICC-Profile ? ? ? Are they identical to what you see on your screen , or at least much better than working with no profile ? ? ?
>> So , I now I don't switch inks , I switch print path . A print using Hahnemuhle William Turner or similar , with a custom profile , ( cathysprofiles.com or an other ) makes a knockout print . <<
Colin , I have found an ICC-Profile service here in Germany , with a very good description , of how to print the testcharts, how to install the profile and how to use it for printing .
(and very strange here , all for MAC OSX users) .
I will get an EPSON 3800 printer tomorrow , and I will do , as you do , switch print paths .
I will use my 4800 for matte and the 3800 for glossy images . So , no need to bleed expensive ink into the maintenance tank anymore .
Could you please give some more info of the quality of the colors , since you have installed the ICC-Profile ? ? ? Are they identical to what you see on your screen , or at least much better than working with no profile ? ? ?
jotloob
Well-Known Member
I have successfully installed my EPSON 3800 .
I have done quite some test prints in B/W and also in color on different papers like
TETENAL FINE ART GLOSSY and MONOCHROME ROCHESTER , which is excellent for B/W and has a phantastic baryt surface .
All I can say is : stunning . Absolutely stunning . Very good colors , very fine tonality good contrast and sharpness .
The colors turned out to be almost perfect . And the B/W images look , as if they are made by the best B/W printer you can think of . Using option warm tone .
Marc , as far as I can see up to now , there must be slight differences in the drivers for the 3800 and the 4800 . So , no more shnickshnack and profiles . Great times are comming up .
I will use the 4800 for the finest matte papers and the 3800 for semi glossy and super glossy only .
I am very happy with my "dry darkroom" now .
Regards Jürgen
BTW . There is a special summer refund from EPSON , which is 150€ . Just great .
I have done quite some test prints in B/W and also in color on different papers like
TETENAL FINE ART GLOSSY and MONOCHROME ROCHESTER , which is excellent for B/W and has a phantastic baryt surface .
All I can say is : stunning . Absolutely stunning . Very good colors , very fine tonality good contrast and sharpness .
The colors turned out to be almost perfect . And the B/W images look , as if they are made by the best B/W printer you can think of . Using option warm tone .
Marc , as far as I can see up to now , there must be slight differences in the drivers for the 3800 and the 4800 . So , no more shnickshnack and profiles . Great times are comming up .
I will use the 4800 for the finest matte papers and the 3800 for semi glossy and super glossy only .
I am very happy with my "dry darkroom" now .
BTW . There is a special summer refund from EPSON , which is 150€ . Just great .
Viele Grüße, Jurgen !
Yeahhh ! Two printers for you. Way to go.
OK, so I am a 2400 user, but I wonder if having 2 x 2400 means I have a 4800 ??
I am sure you will love Hahnemuhle 'William Turner' for BW.
I do not have a RIP system, (veile geld), but only 3 special profiles from Kathy's Profiles. I think the ICC profiles are getting so good that it is not necessary. (Make sure you download/update your profiles often.)
The main thing for me with 24 inch Apple iMac screen is to calibrate it every week at least (I use Eye2). Very quick and easy. When I use PS CS2, and either the ICC profile that I had built, or the Plug-in profiles from paper companies, it gives me a soft proof which to my eye is very close to the later printed result. I care about the result very much, but I am not a fanatic, so maybe an expert will tell the difference. I mainly print BW so it it not such an issue for me. Either way, for printing, it is RGB space.
For me the secret was in learning that after you arrange all the print setup for the print, let Photoshop manage it. In my first days, I was confusing the computer and the printer by letting the printer manage. I give PS all the plugin info, uncheck any 'quick' print, page set up etc., set the tone as I want it, and print. One final thing. Like in the darkroom, you will find that the print fresh off the printer will not look the same the next day when it is really dry. Sometimes I let a print sit for a week where I will see it each day, and my "automatic internal print critic" in my head will either approve or not.
My first attempts at printing on Day 1 (you know, plug it in, don't read the book, etc.) were a big joke ! So funny now, but not funny then. Muddy prints, bad color, uggh.
Now, it is a fact - IF I have a nice screen image, I can 99% make a nice print.
But like everything in this business. The better the 'capture' or the negative/positive, the better the end result. Some things never change.
Cheers,
Colin
Yeahhh ! Two printers for you. Way to go.
OK, so I am a 2400 user, but I wonder if having 2 x 2400 means I have a 4800 ??
I am sure you will love Hahnemuhle 'William Turner' for BW.
I do not have a RIP system, (veile geld), but only 3 special profiles from Kathy's Profiles. I think the ICC profiles are getting so good that it is not necessary. (Make sure you download/update your profiles often.)
The main thing for me with 24 inch Apple iMac screen is to calibrate it every week at least (I use Eye2). Very quick and easy. When I use PS CS2, and either the ICC profile that I had built, or the Plug-in profiles from paper companies, it gives me a soft proof which to my eye is very close to the later printed result. I care about the result very much, but I am not a fanatic, so maybe an expert will tell the difference. I mainly print BW so it it not such an issue for me. Either way, for printing, it is RGB space.
For me the secret was in learning that after you arrange all the print setup for the print, let Photoshop manage it. In my first days, I was confusing the computer and the printer by letting the printer manage. I give PS all the plugin info, uncheck any 'quick' print, page set up etc., set the tone as I want it, and print. One final thing. Like in the darkroom, you will find that the print fresh off the printer will not look the same the next day when it is really dry. Sometimes I let a print sit for a week where I will see it each day, and my "automatic internal print critic" in my head will either approve or not.
My first attempts at printing on Day 1 (you know, plug it in, don't read the book, etc.) were a big joke ! So funny now, but not funny then. Muddy prints, bad color, uggh.
Now, it is a fact - IF I have a nice screen image, I can 99% make a nice print.
But like everything in this business. The better the 'capture' or the negative/positive, the better the end result. Some things never change.
Cheers,
Colin
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Colin mate , greas dee from Bavaria
Thank you very much for your posting . Most of your workflow is exactly the mine .
But first of all , I feel very sorry for you , that installing two 2400's next to each other , do not make up a 4800 . But the idea is nice .
I have attended an X-RITE workshop last year , and got infected with the idea of the absolute need , to buy such a color mangement system . I resisted the temptation , with the help of
Marc's comments , and have worked hard . Now I obtain the results I want (in color)
It has never been a problem in B/W , which I still love very much .
Part of that workshop was the little eye2 device , which I use to calibrate my screens all 4 weeks . I believe , that is suffient enough . I use 2 screens on my system , one for control and the APPLE Cinema exclusivly for my images .
And I have decided , not to obtain any ICC profiles at the current time , as the results from the 3800 are outstanding good . No Rip either .
Now , I have to confess , I am not only a HASSELBLAD freak , but also an almost morbid "paper freak" . I love paper , I must feel it with my fingers , go over the surface , and have my eyes closed . Just feel the paper .
The WILLIAM TURNER is great . There is a paper from ILFORD , called ILFORD GALLERIE smooth fine art paper . That is WILLIAM TURNER . I still have 5 packages .
But I also use other HAHNEMÜHLE papers , matte and semi glossy (FINE ART PEARL) .
For technical images I prefer the TETENAL FINE ART GLOSSY (glossy as a mirror) and also , EPSON PREMIUM SEMI GLOSSY for warmer tones .
CANON is now marketing their "own" paper , which all comes from Hahnemühle .
I have a diabolical idea .
Might be , that HASSELBLAD one day will come up with their own paper (from Hahnemühle)
and they might call it HAHNEBLAD FINE ART CFV PHOTO RAG or HASSELMÜHLE FINE ART CFV TORCHON , for ex&le .
Back to your posting .
For color I use the IECRGB_V2 ICC colorspace (advanced ADOBE RGB) trough all my flow now , and yes , mate , leave the print till next day and look at it at good daylight . And do not
before looking at your prints . Resist ! ! ! But after looking . Yes .
Cheers , Jürgen
Thank you very much for your posting . Most of your workflow is exactly the mine .
But first of all , I feel very sorry for you , that installing two 2400's next to each other , do not make up a 4800 . But the idea is nice .
I have attended an X-RITE workshop last year , and got infected with the idea of the absolute need , to buy such a color mangement system . I resisted the temptation , with the help of
Marc's comments , and have worked hard . Now I obtain the results I want (in color)
It has never been a problem in B/W , which I still love very much .
Part of that workshop was the little eye2 device , which I use to calibrate my screens all 4 weeks . I believe , that is suffient enough . I use 2 screens on my system , one for control and the APPLE Cinema exclusivly for my images .
And I have decided , not to obtain any ICC profiles at the current time , as the results from the 3800 are outstanding good . No Rip either .
Now , I have to confess , I am not only a HASSELBLAD freak , but also an almost morbid "paper freak" . I love paper , I must feel it with my fingers , go over the surface , and have my eyes closed . Just feel the paper .
The WILLIAM TURNER is great . There is a paper from ILFORD , called ILFORD GALLERIE smooth fine art paper . That is WILLIAM TURNER . I still have 5 packages .
But I also use other HAHNEMÜHLE papers , matte and semi glossy (FINE ART PEARL) .
For technical images I prefer the TETENAL FINE ART GLOSSY (glossy as a mirror) and also , EPSON PREMIUM SEMI GLOSSY for warmer tones .
CANON is now marketing their "own" paper , which all comes from Hahnemühle .
I have a diabolical idea .
Might be , that HASSELBLAD one day will come up with their own paper (from Hahnemühle)
and they might call it HAHNEBLAD FINE ART CFV PHOTO RAG or HASSELMÜHLE FINE ART CFV TORCHON , for ex&le .
Back to your posting .
For color I use the IECRGB_V2 ICC colorspace (advanced ADOBE RGB) trough all my flow now , and yes , mate , leave the print till next day and look at it at good daylight . And do not
Cheers , Jürgen
Hahnemuhle is releasing a new inkjet paper with a baryta coating, acid-free alpha celulose base. Just like old darkroom fibre paper.
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/1719/pr-hahnemuehle-announces-genuine-fine-art-baryta-paper.html
Most interesting news in the inkjet industry in a long time.
Eduardo
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/1719/pr-hahnemuehle-announces-genuine-fine-art-baryta-paper.html
Most interesting news in the inkjet industry in a long time.
Eduardo
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Eduardo
HAHNEMÜHLE already produces such a baryt type paper . It is sold under the brand name
MONO-PRINT ROCHESTER (300gr.) and ROCHESTER PLUS (330gr.) and can be bought at MONOCHROM in Berlin .
It has a phantastic surface , just as the old baryt papers we used in the darkroom .
I have used that paper for B/W print . Great .
This papaer can not be used with the EPSON 2000P and QuadTone inks , as these inks do not dry fast enough .
Many HAHNEMÜHLE papers are also sold under an other brand name and also with different prices . These packages contain a different amount of sheets , so that the customer can't compare prices easily .
HAHNEMÜHLE already produces such a baryt type paper . It is sold under the brand name
MONO-PRINT ROCHESTER (300gr.) and ROCHESTER PLUS (330gr.) and can be bought at MONOCHROM in Berlin .
It has a phantastic surface , just as the old baryt papers we used in the darkroom .
I have used that paper for B/W print . Great .
This papaer can not be used with the EPSON 2000P and QuadTone inks , as these inks do not dry fast enough .
Many HAHNEMÜHLE papers are also sold under an other brand name and also with different prices . These packages contain a different amount of sheets , so that the customer can't compare prices easily .
Jurgen:
Thanks for the info. Apperently in America (the continent) is fresh news.
I am very excited about it. I use an Epson 7600 K2. I like to print b&w with QuadtoneRip.
I wonder if this new paper will work fine with my said workflow.
Have you used it? What are your impressions?
Can it be mistaken with a darkroom print?
Photo black, matte black or both? Issues?
Thanks a lot in advance
Eduardo
Thanks for the info. Apperently in America (the continent) is fresh news.
I am very excited about it. I use an Epson 7600 K2. I like to print b&w with QuadtoneRip.
I wonder if this new paper will work fine with my said workflow.
Have you used it? What are your impressions?
Can it be mistaken with a darkroom print?
Photo black, matte black or both? Issues?
Thanks a lot in advance
Eduardo
jotloob
Well-Known Member
Eduardo
I do not say , that this new , also in Germany annouced paper is identical with the ROCHESTER or ROCHESTER plus .
Up to now , there was no Baryta paper available under the HAHNEMÜHLE brand name .
But the ROCHESTER papers are produced by HAHNEMÜHLE and have a typical baryta surface .
Might be , that the new paper has a slightly different surface and perhaps also showing a higher dmax.
The ROCHESTER papers work fine with the K3 inks from EPSON using the 4800 and also the 3800 printer . I have no experience with other printers and/or inks so far . Except for the 2000P as mentioned in an earlier posting .
B/W prints on ROCHESTER papers look very much like darkroom prints . If the prints are fresh , you can smell the ink , but when the ink has dried it is hard to say if it is a digital print or a darkroom print . Photo black is recommended . I have not tried to use matte black .
So let us wait and see , if that new paper will really be a new paper .
Jürgen
I do not say , that this new , also in Germany annouced paper is identical with the ROCHESTER or ROCHESTER plus .
Up to now , there was no Baryta paper available under the HAHNEMÜHLE brand name .
But the ROCHESTER papers are produced by HAHNEMÜHLE and have a typical baryta surface .
Might be , that the new paper has a slightly different surface and perhaps also showing a higher dmax.
The ROCHESTER papers work fine with the K3 inks from EPSON using the 4800 and also the 3800 printer . I have no experience with other printers and/or inks so far . Except for the 2000P as mentioned in an earlier posting .
B/W prints on ROCHESTER papers look very much like darkroom prints . If the prints are fresh , you can smell the ink , but when the ink has dried it is hard to say if it is a digital print or a darkroom print . Photo black is recommended . I have not tried to use matte black .
So let us wait and see , if that new paper will really be a new paper .
Jürgen
"Hahnemuhle is releasing a new inkjet paper with a baryta coating ... "
Can't wait for Autumn to try this paper : -)
My favorite for "Darkroom" like inkjets is Crain's Museo Silver Rag ... now available in 22'X17" sheets for my Epson 3800. This rag paper is double weight and you can use the Luster paper setting on the printer. It very much reminds me of the original French made Zone VI Brillant papers I used in the darkroom. Very hard to tell a well done Silver Rag print from a silverprint ... at least in B&W... (don't know about color since I won't waste a sheet on trying it : -)
Can't wait for Autumn to try this paper : -)
My favorite for "Darkroom" like inkjets is Crain's Museo Silver Rag ... now available in 22'X17" sheets for my Epson 3800. This rag paper is double weight and you can use the Luster paper setting on the printer. It very much reminds me of the original French made Zone VI Brillant papers I used in the darkroom. Very hard to tell a well done Silver Rag print from a silverprint ... at least in B&W... (don't know about color since I won't waste a sheet on trying it : -)
Yes Eduardo.
Convert digital color using a few different methods ... for high volume wedding B&Ws I use the Gradient Map in Photoshop and adjust contrast from there ... and Channels if more precision is needed. The new B&W function in PS3 is promising.
As I've mentioned, I calibrate my monitor and use that as the Synchronized profile in Photoshop ... then send the file(s) to the Colorburst RIP for the 3800 to print using the Premium Luster paper profile when printing on the Crain Silver RAG. That's it.
Convert digital color using a few different methods ... for high volume wedding B&Ws I use the Gradient Map in Photoshop and adjust contrast from there ... and Channels if more precision is needed. The new B&W function in PS3 is promising.
As I've mentioned, I calibrate my monitor and use that as the Synchronized profile in Photoshop ... then send the file(s) to the Colorburst RIP for the 3800 to print using the Premium Luster paper profile when printing on the Crain Silver RAG. That's it.