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As good as drum scanned 4x5

G'Day:

"Really, I'm not the slightest bit interested in people's opinions as to which of the two they consider is better, what I am interested in is the differences they see."

@ Keith. The value of this forum, for me, apart from the general comradeship, is the opinions expressed by many, of various experiences, and of various cultures. I am interested in opinions, as I am in yours. I am not bound by any of them, of course. I don't understand your point here that you are not interested in opinion but want an opinion as to differences seen. So, I will withdraw from this discussion - it is way too esoteric for me. I will look and learn.
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@ Marc. Glad you liked the 400ASA little grain, digital film flat bed scanned, not even Nikon not even drum, not reprocessed, crushed to fit, image.
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Your words are true.

@ Paul. "Do your own testing. That is my advice. For me only first hand experience is important." Agreed.

Cheers, Lads.

That's all for me on this one. I've got to catch a horse and lead it to the water hole.


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Marc

Given the question it's refreshing to get a response that is based on experience and opinion and actually highlights perceived differences. Many thanks.

Paul

"Of course everybody is interested to compare any new product in the chain we use. To find out where we stand everybody will do tests and compare new items with existing ones. With all respect they do not have much meaning to me. Their value will always be limited for as far as I know these other users and consider their judgement relevant to me"

The problem here is that nobody (Marc excluded) seems willing to share their comparison/experience, so, how are we to know whether their judgements are relevant or not.

I'm still in the market for opinion on CFV files if anyone is willing to share.
 
Hi Keith,

I guess there are basically not enough people who both have the CFV and also use film. Marc's point that the vast majority of the MF digi users are pro photographers to me suggests that once a pro converts he/she is unlikely to shoot film anymore (short of personal enjoyment). They are just using their digiback to make it pay for itself during their dayjob. Shooting side-by-side comparisons is more an amateur thing, and they typically don't have the digibacks due to $$.

Wilko (now triggering some controversy I imagine..)
 
"I don't understand your point here that you are not interested in opinion but want an opinion as to differences seen"

Colin

The apple or the orange?

I'm not interested in which you think is better, but I am interested in the differences that you perceive.
 
Wilko

I take your point, but there must be more than a handful here with the CFV and a history of shooting film with their Blads.
 
G'Day Keith:

I understand.

Incidentally, for what it's worth, your work is so outstanding - e.g. the Bluebells, Found Paintings etc. I wonder how it could be improved with any newer technology!

I tend to agree with Wilko - not enough amateurs with both (at this forum anyway) for a good s&le.

Cheers,

Colin

Now I am really done here!
 
Guys, I've just re-read this thread and have to say that my posts do seem a tad tetchy. Apologies, the fact is I'm working on some drum scans for a client and posting here at the same time; I never was much good at patting my head and rubbing my belly.

Colin, many thanks, much appreciated.
 
G'Day Keith:

No worries, mate.

This is a well known hangout for grumpy old bastards ... like me.
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Cheers,

Colin

PS Send me some of those mushrooms.
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My wife tells me I'm a grumpy old git but I assure her that I'm simply a curmudgeon; sounds so much better.

Best to all

Keith
 
That is funny,

The words grumpy old men came to my mind even before I read Colins last post here.

I am glad I learned a new word: curmudgeon.
That does sound a lot better and is much more interesting.
Thanks Keith!


Paul
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Okay... here's my take on a 16MP capture vs scan comparison. I realize that there are lots of variables that I didn't eliminate, and it was in no way a scientifically accurate examination. For all intents and purposes, it was "quick 'n dirty," so don't give me any grief about it.

Camera: Hasselblad ArcBody.
Lens: 45mm Rodenstock Apo-Grandagon @ f11.
Film: Provia 100.
Back: Imacon/Hasselblad V96C (16MP, 16-bit color depth).
Subject: 4-color magazine ad tacked to a Redwood tree stump.
Light: Light overcast, diffused sky light (no direct sun), early afternoon, October or November, northern California.
Monitor: Calibrated LaCie Electron 19 Blue III.
Software: FlexColor 2, 3? Photoshop 5 or 6.
Printer: Epson 2200
Media: Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308
Profile: By Eric Bullock

I bracketed with the shutter speed based on a gray card reading. Final comparison was between the two "normals." At one shutter speed faster, the 100 ISO film looked identical to the 50 ISO capture.

The capture was converted to TIF by FlexColor @ 360ppi.

The film was drum scanned at 4000ppi and saved as a TIF. In Photoshop, I cropped it to match the smaller capture area of the image, then reduced it to 360ppi. I added some small amount of Photoshop USM to bring it back to pre-reduction sharpness.

The capture processing and FlexColor conversion to TIF involves inherent sharpening and other adjustments. The scan had a "small amount" of sharpening, plus its own inherent modifications of the film image.

I made a 12.5" square print from each. At about a six-foot viewing distance, I saw no difference between them. At closer (probably about a foot) distance I saw a bit more shadow detail in the capture, and a touch more in the near-highlights.

I up-rezzed both images to 48" sq @ 300 dpi and made 8X10" prints of the same section. The increased shadow detail and slight increase in near-highlight detail of the capture was apparent at about six feet and further.

Conclusion (more or less): The detail you can get with a good drum scan from fine grain film is incredible. With some Photoshop work, you can bring up details lurking in the shadows, and make huge enlargements if you don't mind seeing some film grain. On the other hand, the 16MP capture provides wider tonal separation and more "processing" flexibility, grainless enlargements and the definite advantages of no film buying, storage, processing, handling, scanning etc. But, enlargement capability is limited, compared to the scan. Probably, 22-39MP captures are way beyond that.

With 16-bit color depth, plus adjustments in FlexColor and Photoshop, visual differences between capture and film can be indistinguishable. Black and white images might be a different story, but that requires software like ImagePrint, and maybe a printer with the newer inks, to level the playing field, and I don't have either.

I would have posted some images, but I did this about five years ago, and after a couple of years found no need to keep them. (I still have my notes.)
 
Hi Ken,

Thanks for a very comprehensive comparison.
It shows how many factors influence the result and how difficult it is to draw final conclusions.

Paul
 
Thanks again Schuster.

Marc, I take your point about Hasselblad software and firmware having advanced over the years. I would imagine that the use of the latest updates would mean even more flexibility for the capture file.

Anyone else noticed that the "post this message" button has changed to "sofort veroffentlichen"?
 
Anyone else noticed that the "post this message" button has changed to "sofort veroffentlichen"?

Hi Keith,

That is only the beginning.
This forum will be in German from April first.
So those of you who do not have a good command of the German language have about three months to take a fast training course to learn German.
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We are all extemely busy translating old posts into German.
It is a hell of a job but we will manage.

I happen to know a guy who can help you all with this German thing just send me a PM.


Paul

PS
Please read my post in Why Medium Format
 
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